No.32 TP Mk. I scopes

[Seaforth72]

I am happy to report that Lyman "Telescope, Sighting No. 32 TP Mk. I " (also written as No. 32 T.P. Mk. I -- these are the designations in the Canadian Army EME Instructions 505 (C.A.) serial number 4407S is now in my collection. This is the Canadian Army customized version of the Lyman Alaskan scope, of which only 350 were purchased in 1944. 2-1/2 power.

On Saturday at the 2-day HACS gun show 2014-11-15 in Burnaby, I asked a fellow who had a lot of scopes on his table if he had any military scopes. He said he had a military issued Lyman Alaskan scope at home which he had never brought out to a show. He thought it had a 4-digit serial number. I anxiously awaited the resumption of the show and he brought it in to the show the next morning. He knew what it was, and we reached an agreement on the price. The optics are very good.

I am in need of the correct black turret screw caps as my scope came with two taller aluminum caps. While I am asking, I might as well ask for the Lyman Alaskan leather lens caps, bracket C Mk. 2 CGB418A,C No. 18 Mk. I scope case and (ideally) matching No. 4 Mk. i* Long Branch 1944 74L#### rifle!

I noticed that my old army photocopy of Canadian Army Local E.M.E. INSTRUCTIONS -- SMALL ARMS AND MACHINE GUNS C 505 (C.A.) had two pages 48 and was missing page 45. WANTED! Copy of page 45. Also I would naturally be interested in original printed (1st generation) EME.

It never rains but it pours. Another C No. 32 TP Mk. I SN 4396S ( no /|\ following the SN) with bracket SN 74L0195 and mounted on a 1955 No. 4 Mk. I* Long Branch/CAL No. 4 Mk. I* rifle was listed and sold the next day on Gun Nutz. The serial number of that rifle 74L0195A matched more or less, with an A suffix (presumably to differentiate it from the original 1944 rifle of the same number.). Normally on Lee-Enfields, an "A" suffix denotes non-standard parts, but in this case as there is no cancelled SN, I suspect that the retired military armourer who reportedly built this rig used an unnumbered 1955 dated Long Branch marked CAL body.

No. 32 TP Mk. I scopes that I have come across reference to in my research so far:

Unknown standard Lyman Alaskan fitted temporarily for trials on 32L4243 in 1943.

4340S estimated by Clive Law as earliest Canadian No. 32 (TP) Mk. I scope

4358S Rifle SN not known to me.

4389S. 74L0122

4392S 74L0318

4396S. 74L0195 Forced match on a 1955 rifle numbered as 74L0195A. Not the original rifle for this scope.

4407S. Rifle SN not known to me. My scope.

4411 Now on a 1943 Savage 55C7424. Not the original rifle for this scope. Bracket has no rifle SN.

4451S. 74L0332

4492S 74L0046

4640S. Rifle SN not known to me.

4690S estimated by Clive Law as last Canadian No. 32 (TP) Mk. I scope

Clive estimated the rifles reserved for these scopes were 74L0001 to 74L0350 (page 46 Without Warning).

The scope contract received approval in March 1944 (p. 44 Without Warning) but interestingly there are at least two C No. 18 Mk. I scope cases dated 1943. (P. 33 Without Warning.)

Even with this small sampling, it appears that the 350 scopes were randomly assigned to the 74L#### rifles set aside at Long Branch as there does not appear to be any correlation between scope and rifle serial numbers.

For those reading up on these scopes, I suggest having a look at Clive Law's WITHOUT WARNING. Pages 33, 39, 43-47, 51 and 53.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Peter Laidler]

Add 4419 on rifle 0022 owned by the UK MoD that came to the UK for trials together with spare telescope 4430. One of these, I forget which, has the standard UK spec/No32 type graticle and crosswire. The trials were not a great success and were stopped.

Canada disposed of a lot of these rifles to the newly re-forming European Armies in 1946.

Why not get 10 sets of the little caps re-made and blacked. Because as sure as god made little green apples, if YOU need a set, then so do plenty of other owners!

[Lee Enfield]

Hello Colin,
welcome to the wonderful & frustrating family of the TP.

After some more research you will discover that most of the "matching" TP's are repro bases mounted onto renumbered actions by hopeful (or unscrupulous) owners.

Anyway, back to history: The late Pete Bloom obtained and sold some 45 - 50 TP scopes and Rings (no bases were available as they were destroyed with the receivers) from Holland in the late 1990's. He got the rings and scopes separately so he was not able to tell which scopes were originally matched to which rifles.

The Repro bases were manufactured by a friend of our own Dr. Paine.

to recap:

Of the approx. 35+ TP rifle serials I have collected and the guns and photos I have examined, so far as I'm aware there are 2-3 truly matching rifles extant, @10 "serial number matching rifles" have incorrect receiver features and the majority of correct rifles (5-10?) are mismatched scope/receiver/repro bases.

Then there are the ones where the assembler made no effort to fake a proper serial number onto the action, advertising mismatched "but correct" TP rifles in a variety of Long Branch serial blocks and years, and British No4 and Savage actions....

[Roger Payne]

As far as I can recall Pete (Bloom) told me that he had acquired thirty sets of scopes & rings from Holland, & asked if I could get my machinist, Graham Smith, to make up some accurate copy bases. The intent was to get them as close as we could to the originals but not to attempt to deceive. In fact they were readily discernible as the edges were all just that little bit too new & sharp looking. Also Graham surface ground them to get them accurate dimensionally, & the grinding marks were still visible, albeit fine, through the blueing. Some of the later ones Graham produced I had him engrave the examiner's mark, as I know the originals were stamped. Lee Enfield may be right on the totals, but Peter came up to see me bringing what he had got & stated that he had managed to get thirty sets (which is what I counted). He may have had more & have already disposed of a few, but I don't think so. I did not get mounts made for all thirty sets, & to be honest I can't recall how many I did get made, but 16 rings a bell. I managed to persuade him to relinquish eight scope & ring sets to me in a trade offset against the cost of the bases. I believe others have been selling the bases recently, & I presume these are of more recent manufacture & certainly don't have anything to do with me.

I believe my rifle is correct, though as Lee Enfield suggests is mostly the case, mine is also an 'honest mis-match'; it came from the Charnwood collection, & interestingly the rings are serial numbered to rifle 74L0000, suggesting that assuming the production run did start at 74L it was 74L0000 & NOT 74L0001, as might generally be supposed.

I may have a reproduction but accurate set of rings amongst my tat somewhere. If the OP is interested & would like to drop me a line I'll have a look for them as I don't particularly need them. No bases left though I'm afraid.

ATB

[gsimmons]

Can we see some pictures? Thank you!

[Brian Dick]

The number of scopes was 30 as Roger describes. Pete Bloom found me the scope that is one serial number off from my original rifle as found in a batch of service rifles imported by Southern Ohio Gun in the late 80's or early 90's. Roger's machinist Graham made me a complete reproduction set consisting of both the base and rings to do the restoration. He reverse engineered an original base and rings as supplied by Roger. I had a couple of original Canadian cheek pieces and that was the only other part missing. The serial number of my rifle is 74L0256. The original scope number as stamped on the wrist is 4518S and the telescope installed as supplied by Pete Bloom is 4517S. It shoots well and I feel very luck to have it as they are scarce on the ground. I guess we could also class this one as an "honest mismatch" The only reproduction parts are the base and rings. They are as Roger describes, a bit sharper on the edges with the examiner's mark engraved rather than stamped. A note of thanks to both Roger and Peter who helped me out with this one. Wow, it's getting to be a long time ago my friends! I never had the pleasure of meeting Pete Bloom in person but had a few interesting chin wags with him at the time and found him to be a great person.

[Peter Laidler]

The Holland ( I always thought that it was Belgium for some reason) connection certainly and factually fits in with the supplied to European Armies post war. Their trainee snipers used to bring them to the UK on their courses but they couldn't be incorporated into the standard snipers courses due to the fact that....., well, not to put too fine a point on it, they were crap - certainly compared with what was already in use ON the courses!

I had our rifle re-barrelled at our big workshop and that caused headaches because you couldn't unbreech and breech up unless you removed the mount as I recall. So you couldn't get the 'best-fit/optical alignment' barrel as we usually would. It's easy to tell a faked up rifle as the fakers didn't optically align the centred scope for horizon and vertical before they ploughed on - and on! And when you've got a small dia tube and lenses, optical aberration is never far away

[Seaforth72]

After WWII, Canada planned to align itself with the US military in future conflicts rather than with the British military. The Americans were, after all, right next door. Thus we conducted training with US small arms including the M1 Garand (I like to point out to my American colleagues that Mr. Garand was born in Canada), M1D sniper rifle, BAR, M3A1 "Grease-gun", 1919A4 MMG etc. Canadian Army training manuals for US weapons were printed and although we mainly stayed with the .303 until the 7.62mm changeover in 1957, some US weapons such as the 1919A4 and 3.5" Rocket Launcher were adopted (I fired both in training).

In WWII Canada produced almost a million military vehicles (900,000 plus) most of which had the British style right-hand-drive as we expected, as in WWI, to be fighting shoulder to shoulder with our British comrades. The automotive factories in Canada were however more closely co-ordinated with US auto factories and in Canada our vehicles are left-hand-drive (except for street sweepers and some postal delivery vehicles). Having driven my old RHD 1943 Chevy C15 in Canada, I can certainly see the logic of LHD vehicles for out military! After WWII Canada decided to re-equip mainly with US pattern vehicles built in Canada. The M-Series SMP such as the M38CDN 1/4 ton, M-37 3/4 ton, M-135 2-1/2 ton etc. We also adopted the US 105 mm field gun but adopted the superbly armoured British Centurion with 20-Pounder gun and Ferret Scout Car. A bit of a hodge-podge.

During WWII Canada had the Mutual Aid Program (MAP) and unlike the similar US Lend-Lease, the ownership of vehicles, weapons, radios etc. was transferred with the items. What to do with the surplus WWII stuff remained a question. In the 1950s Canada gave away a Division's worth of equipment each to various countries wanting to rebuild their militaries as part of NATO. I think these went to Holland, Norway, Italy and Belgium. That would have included over 70 Canadian sniper rifles per country. Add to that the fact that most of the Canadian made Long Branch sniper rifles had already gone to the British in WWII and when sold surplus, they seem to have often gone to the USA. Now we collectors are trying to repatriate them. :-)

Thank you all for the informative postings above. Your generous sharing of knowledge is very much appreciated.

I think Roger Payne is right about the start number likely being 74L0000 rather than 74L0001.

---------- Post added at 11:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 AM ----------

Regarding the two turret caps - I am hoping that these were generic Lyman Alaskan caps and would thus be widely used, and not unique to 350 custom made scopes. Can anyone confirm this? Did they change in appearance over the years?

[Lee Enfield]

...snip...

[/COLOR]Regarding the two turret caps - I am hoping that these were generic Lyman Alaskan caps and would thus be widely used, and not unique to 350 custom made scopes. Can anyone confirm this? Did they change in appearance over the years?

They are standard Lyman Alaskan caps.

When I found out that we had lost Pete Bloom (who I also never met) I printed off most of my email correspondence with him...now mostly lost in the paperwork jungle....though I still have some of the emails.

[Seaforth72]

Scopes can become damaged or lost in service, so one would reasonably expect a supply of spare scopes and parts. A spare scope # 4430S was sent to the UK along with a test rifle 74L0022 with scope 4419S and scope (re: Peter Laidler above). We have all seen how scopes were so often changed on No. 4 sniper rifles and the normal No. 32 scopes have a great reputation for toughness.

Only 351 Lyman scopes were ordered by Canada ( the 1943 trials one and 350 production models) (pp. 43 & 46 "Without Warning" by C. Law reference to the trials and the contract). Either there was a second contract for some spare scopes or fewer than 350 sniping rigs were assembled so as to leave some spare scopes.

Does anyone have any thoughts or even better, facts regarding these spare No. 32 (TP) Mk. I scopes?

Does anyone know what the "S" at the end of the serial number stood for? e.g. 4407S followed by a /|\ (though some did not have a broad arrow) which was not part of the serial number.

Thank you Peter for the information on the caps being standard Alaskan caps.