Bren facility at Enfield

[Peter Laidler]

Learned something interesting during the past weeks about the Bren production facility at Enfield. The Bren 'facility' at Enfield seems to have been in business from the start of production in 1937 until early in 1981 when the Bren facility shut down. Although this '81 date could be a bit earlier or later. There was pretty well continual Bren work between those dates although it is possible (I'd say VERY highly probably....) that there were short breaks in work and/or output.

This included the manufacture of new Mk3 guns and parts, Conversion of 20,000 Mk2 to Mk2/1 spec and FTR of others in the 50's. Conversion of guns to L4 spec and later, FTR of worn out L4 guns. Conversion of others for foreign buyers. Manufacture and conversion of spare parts until Bren facility closed. Manufacture of any Bren parts that were NOT compatible with current production ceased after .303" gun production ceased.

Also included in this was the refurbishment of parts such as bipods, butt slides etc etc for return to Ordnance as spare parts stockpiles. This is very interesting as an Armourer because you would occasionaly get through the Ordnance system a seemingly brand new, say bipod or piston/piston extension assembly that simply cannot be brand new. It's simple! The parts had been rebuilt/refurbished to new spec at Enfield and returned to Ord as spare parts.

The Bren facility was occasionally the financial lifeline that Enfield needed

Information

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[Lee Enfield]

2 questions:
1. How late did Enfield continue manufacture of Mk3 Brens?
2. Did Enfield ever "new build" an L4A2, ala the Indian 7.62mm IB (IMG 16GA)

[Peter Laidler]

New build L4 Brens, it depends on what you mean by new build. Starting from new made bodies? Then No. But starting with new made/unused Mk3 bodies held in stock, then yes. Waste not, Want not.

Last new made Mk3 guns. BP or KevG. When were the last UE type serial numbers issued on Mk3 Brens?

[Peter Laidler]

Might as well tack this onto the end of this barely read tome.......... RFI/Indfian made or converted L4 guns

Has anyone seen or acquired or heard of a nation using or having their Bren stocks converted to 7.62mm L4 spec at RFI during the mid 70's onwards? I have been shown a catalogue/brochure issued at one of the Middle Eastern Arms Expo's during this time and another very similar issued/published by the Indian Government announcing that RFI can offer this (7.62mm/L4) service to government agencies subject to approval agreements - presumably between goverrnments as opposed to any agreement with the RSAF who held the patent rights on certain aspects of the conversion!

There it is. It seems as though the RFI L4 new build or converted guns were exported. But where to? Any ideas anyone. Wherever it was, they'd have been a LOT cheaper than a deal with RSAF Enfield. Cheaper............... Well, probably not of you were an '...emerging nation' (that usually means Africa somewhere.....) with their fingers in our overseas aid till!

The same brochure also advertises the Sterling SMG's and RFI L1A1 rifles that they describe as '....favourably compatible with the licence built Commonwealth rifles'.... The L1A1's!

[Brit plumber]

The last Mk3s were 1961 and then the last 500 bodies were converted to L4 so those L4s made from new Mk3 bodies will be in the UE61 A10xxx to A14xxx range. It may also be remotely possible that an L4 may have 2 UE numbers, one as a late Mk3 (Barred out) and one as an L4A4.

I've not seen or heard of any indian conversions done for foreign governements but I've seen the website offering them (It may still be there).

[Lee Enfield]

Might as well tack this onto the end of this barely read tome.......... RFI/Indfian made or converted L4 guns

Has anyone seen or acquired or heard of a nation using or having their Bren stocks converted to 7.62mm L4 spec at RFI during the mid 70's onwards? I have been shown a catalogue/brochure issued at one of the Middle Eastern Arms Expo's during this time and another very similar issued/published by the Indian Government announcing that RFI can offer this (7.62mm/L4) service to government agencies subject to approval agreements - presumably between goverrnments as opposed to any agreement with the RSAF who held the patent rights on certain aspects of the conversion!

There it is. It seems as though the RFI L4 new build or converted guns were exported. But where to? Any ideas anyone. Wherever it was, they'd have been a LOT cheaper than a deal with RSAF Enfield. Cheaper............... Well, probably not of you were an '...emerging nation' (that usually means Africa somewhere.....) with their fingers in our overseas aid till!

The same brochure also advertises the Sterling SMG's and RFI L1A1 rifles that they describe as '....favourably compatible with the licence built Commonwealth rifles'.... The L1A1's!

Interestingly a local collector has 2 Indian 7.62 Conversions, a IC (MkI converted to tangent sight and 7.62mm) and I believe the 2nd is a IB (Mk3 Bren manufactured as a 7.62mm), not requiring the magazine support conversion disks.

[Peter Laidler]

That would tend to suggest that RFI offered to convert ANY Mk of Bren gun to 7.62mm spec including the more difficult Mk1 guns as well as the simpler (?) Mk2's and 3's for other nations

[TactAdv]

Peter, if I am not mistaken, I seem to recall at EUROSATORY a few years back, the Indian SAF was still advertising the availability of brand new L4's if ordered in suitable quantities.

This was about 2008-09 as I recall. I have no idea if they actually did make them in recent memory, but they advertised availability right beside their current MAG58's.

Just a data point.

-TomH

[Peter Laidler]

That's interesting. I suppose it's the same old thing that if you order enough, they'll tool-up. The old Bren, nice and nostalgic tjough it is, even in 7.62mm guise is well out of date against, dare I say it the cheap, cheerful but superior PKM.

One of our WO's who was seconded to Ghana told us a few years ago how he tried and tried relentlessly to get them to get their Sterling (6,000 of 'em) and Brens sent back for refurbishment under the old nox extinct Crown Agents programme. But the offers from cheap new soviet/chicom agencies offering more for less, it was a lost battle!

But back to RFI Brens. It looks like some nations did take up the offer.

[Brit plumber]

Ive got a 1A and a 1B but the 1C is quite a rare bird. I know of one in the Uk but that's it.

In 2011 India still had on it's books over 1,000,000 Lee Enfield .303 rifles.

These are the 2012 figures which make for interesting reading.

Organization .303 rifles .410 muskets Modern rifles* Machine guns Sub-machine guns Handguns Unidentified types All small arms
Army 305,000 ? 1,200,000 ? ? 250,000 750,000 2,500,000
Other military ? ? ? ? ? ? 100,000 100,000
Police 1,000,000 250,000 50,000 ? 100,000 300,000 ? 1,700,000
Paramilitary 600,000 ? 300,000 50,000 200,000 100,000 ? 1,300,000
Total 1,905,000 250,000 1,550,000 50,000 300,000 650,000 850,000 5,600,000

I couldn't find the Indian State Arsemal web site that used to offer the LMG but I did find this info on the Sterling, 5000 a year in 2012, as recent as that!

Sterling sub-machine gun
Sub-machine guns are relatively rare
in much of the world, used mostly for
VIP protection and other niche roles.
In India, sub-machine guns are often
called carbines and appear to be the
firearm of choice. The British-designed
Sterling sub-machine gun was initially
imported in the mid-1960s, with 32,536
purchased outright (Thompson, 2012).2
Indian domestic production began
around that time at the IOF Kanpur
plant (IOB, n.d.) Though production
was probably higher before, it averaged
5,000 annually as of 2012 (see Table 3).
This suggests at least 400,000 units