The importance of the grease

[Vincent]

As someone who's learned 'in theatre' the importance of grease between the wood and steel and the effects of not having it does, I look on eyes agog when people spend ages getting rid of it. It's there for a good reason. Not just a GOOD reason but a xxxxxxg good reason I say!

I split this from another thread to try and illustrate what Peter is telling us here.

As luck would have it I recently acquired two No4 parts guns. They were submerged in sea water during a hurricane several years ago.

When I got them apart I noticed one had not been greased and the other one had a thick coat of grease under the wood.

The one that had been greased is in remarkably good condition considering the dip in the briny. The one that had no grease is badly pitted.

Attachment 60132Attachment 60133Attachment 60134Attachment 60135Attachment 60136Attachment 60137Attachment 60138

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Seaspriter]

This is certainly a subject worthy of discussion. I will plead my ignorance on this issue because I'd been told:

"Oil everything that moves."

This is clearly not the case, as the other thread began to identify. Where to use specific lubricants and protective coatings is vital issue for both the use/firing and the preservation of our guns for future generations.

Here are some key issues that I found on the "to grease or not to grease" issue.

From the M-1 Garand website (How To Clean Your Guns )

"The conventional wisdom is:
If it rotates, oil it. If it slides, grease it."

"Generally speaking, "oil" is lighter weight, less viscous and free-flowing at room temperature, while "grease" is thicker and not a liquid at room temperature. There is no specific threshold for just what is an oil versus what is a grease, but Rem Oil definitely is a light-weight non-viscous oil. A light-weight oil like Rem Oil will very effectively penetrate between tightly fitting parts, including around pins."

There are several choices for viscous grease. "Shooter's Choice" is popular; its thin nozzle [& hypodermic needle style thumb piston] lets you control where you apply it, making it easier to lubricate slide rails. "Hoppe's Gun Grease" is the other popular alternative."

Brownells has a good video: http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleanin...-prod6525.aspx

The Enfield Armour's Manual from 1931 called for a mixture of "mineral jelly [I think this is the same as Vaseline, but not sure] and beeswax" to be applied to the wood/metal interface. I think the reason why is explained here (from the M-1 Garand/Carbine Civilian Marksmanship website -- Wood Cleaning Article | Civilian Marksmanship Program):

"The almost black color along the metalwood lines of firearms would indicate....... over time, gun oil dissolves the resins in wood and makes it mushy. For example, the compression effect of Garand receivers/trigger guards crushing the wood is in part caused by oil damage to the wood."

I suspect it is the failure to put a coating of mineral jelly(Vaseline?)/beeswax in the area of the trigger guard/drawers of my Enfields that has caused the sloppiness in that area as gun oil got into the wood and began destroying its integrity.

What's the opinion of the experts?

[Seaspriter]

The Enfield Armour's Manual from 1931 called for a mixture of "mineral jelly and beeswax" to be applied to the wood/metal interface.

I think the reason why is explained here (from the M-1 Garand/Carbine Civilian Marksmanship website -- Wood Cleaning Article | Civilian Marksmanship Program):

"The almost black color along the metalwood lines of firearms would indicate....... over time, gun oil dissolves the resins in wood and makes it mushy. For example, the compression effect of Garand receivers/trigger guards crushing the wood is in part caused by oil damage to the wood."

I checked British versus American English definitions of "mineral jelly:"
Noun 1. mineral jelly - a semisolid mixture of hydrocarbons obtained from petroleum; used in medicinal ointments and for lubrication petrolatum, petroleum jelly; Vaseline - a trademarked brand of petroleum jelly.

Based on the Enfield & Garand instructions, I bought a block of beeswax at Michaels (in the candle making section). Pure beeswax at room temperature is very hard and solid, like candle wax.

Melted 50/50 Beeswax with Vaseline (petroleum jelly) in an old shoe polish can. Put a small piece of red candle in the mix to give it a slightly reddish color so it is bit more visible. Once cooled, it is the consistency of stiff shoe polish, somewhat like putty -- pliable but not gooey.

Then I took apart a newly acquired No.1 MkIII Lithgow Enfield and cleaned every area where metal came in contact with wood, especially where gun oil was deteriorating the wood, as Capt. Laidler recommended. After scraping out as much gunk as possible with a screwdriver blade -- there was a lot of crud, grease, oil, dirt, grit, etc. -- I used turpentine with a brush to clean out the remainder of the gunk on the forend; especially in the area under the receiver and around the magazine. Dried it all out and applied the beeswax/mineral jelly mix it to every wood area that had been exposed to gun oil and wherever wood/metal contact. Used the flat side of a screwdriver like a spatula to get in small areas.

This beeswax/mineral jelly combination repels oil while preserving the wood.

[Vincent]

I am going with a red calcium sulfonate grease, Liquid Wrench GR015 marine grease.

Aside from all the great qualities of a calcium sulfonate, it has a pretty high dropping point, 554f. Beeswax melts around 150f.

It’s “cheap & cheerful” and oh, so convenient. I just add it to the shopping list.

LIQUID WRENCH GR015 Marine Grease, 14 Oz., Red - Walmart.com

[Bruce_in_Oz]

Part of the problem is the arcane chemistry going on when you have wood, steel and assorted hydro-carbons in close proximity, and the added hazard of various amounts of "atmospheric moisture".

"Proper" gun stocks are made from timber that has been dried to contain somewhere between ten and twelve percent water. Dried excessively, the timber will warp and even splinter during machining. If it survives that, it will then cheerfully absorb as much atmospheric moisture as it can before you can stabilise it with oil, etc, and thus, will distort further.

Furniture for Lee Enfields was STORED in tanks of linseed oil for MONTHS before final fitting. The idea was to ensure that the timber was in no way "thirsty".

Once on "issue" however, especially in "warm" places like Australia, the Middle East and so on, the wood needed to be "maintained". Leave a vintage and well serviced SMLE out in the sun for a couple of hours and see how much oil cooks out of the wood.

Once water gets into the surface, and especially in "hidden areas" like like the entire barrel channel, it WILL start to affect things. The metal will rust and all manner of nasty chemical reactions will start to occur in the oil and the timber. This is why, for over a century now, armourers were SUPPOSED to do a COMPLETE inspection of EVERY weapon on the system, at least once each year, whether the item in question had been thrashed mercilessly all over the countryside, or had lounged in relative luxury in some huge, obscure, warehouse armoury.

Oils DETERIORATE. They can deteriorate to the point that they can become acidic. Ask the vehicle buffs around here what happens when you don't stir the sump from time to time and don't bother to check (or change) the oils and greases on a regular basis.

[Seaspriter]

Oils DETERIORATE. They can deteriorate to the point that they can become acidic.

Bruce, you have raised some important issues here.
Vincent, you seem to have a good grounding in chemistry.
Perhaps we can shed some new light on curing a few problems with some healthy debate.

The beneficial effects of both linseed oil and Tung Oil on wood have been proven over the centuries of application. (I have guns and antique furniture 200-300 years old still in good condition after centuries of natural oils -- even though the oil has turned dark from oxidation).

I am making the assumption that one of the reasons why these oils are good for wood is that both are "natural" compounds derived from plant seeds and have a synergistic effect on wood (a plant), helping stabilize the humidity balance, and to a certain extent, warding off fungus and to an even lesser extent repelling chemicals. However, linseed oil is easily attacked by solvents (just apply some Rubbing Alcohol to an old Linseed Oil finish and watch it emulsify.)

The next assumption (I recognize the limiting power of "A**-U-Me"): The powerful chemicals added to today's gun oils/greases, especially combined with gun powders, while having a positive effect on metal, may have a very negative effect on wood, especially over the long-term. (Perhaps this explains why the drawers of our Enfields are sloppy, even when not having been shot a lot, even after post-war stock rebuilds).

Further assumption: Substances that are "natural" to living things are going to pose a significantly lower risk of having detrimental long-term effects to wood. Thus beeswax (used for lip balm and museum furniture wax) ) and mineral/petroleum jelly (e.g. "Vaseline" used for wound healing) is a safer bet for protecting both wood and any metal that comes in contact with wood. A 50/50 mixture of Beeswax/Mineral Jelly seems to be a far more stable and effective water/oil repellant than just Linseed Oil, with a higher likelihood of having a positive (or at least neutral) impact on the wood, while preventing the effects of rust on Vincent's pics in post #1.

Since this post is a string of "reasonable" and "supportable" "assumptions" and "observations," but not based on evidence by scientific testing, do any of the experts and collectors in MilSurps-land have more astute opinions, facts, or evidence?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

[Seaspriter]

Upon reflection, one thing that's getting clear to me is there is potentially a very big difference between "wood grease" and "metal grease." The properties of the former are seemingly not well known/documented, but those of the latter are well documented.

This distinction may be a new level of thinking on the subject:
-- metal grease is for lubricating sliding metal parts,
-- while wood grease is for mutual protection of wood and metal at the interface.

Many of the dark spots on my antique guns and furniture collection were formed by either an iron object (sometimes a gun's lock plate or an old paint can on furniture) rusting on the wood (turning it black) or a stain from a substance that was not repelled by a wood finish (such as ink, automotive grease, etc.). This is why good furniture uses varnish on the surface, which is a very powerful repellant and quite stable/resistant to mild chemical attack.

With our military guns, varnish is not authentic, and certainly wouldn't be used for interior areas like gun barrel chases, behind butt plates, swivel screws, or in receiver cavities, thus the need for a good wood grease for interior interfaces.

(BTW, for the outside finish for a military gun I like the effects of BLO, which is then rubbed off the surface completely, then an application of a thin coat or two of Tung Oil, which is much more durable than BLO alone, followed by a coat of Briwax, which repels dirt and oil, leaves a satin lustre, and is well documented by museums for its endearing qualities on fine furniture.)

Any thoughts???

[WarPig1976]

I like Ballistol for everything. Said it before, good enough for the German Heer good enough for me.

[ssj]

"They can deteriorate to the point that they can become acidic. Ask the vehicle buffs around here what happens when you don't stir the sump from time to time and don't bother to check (or change) the oils and greases on a regular basis. "

The products of combustion are acidic not the oil aging. Stirring the sump of not? well if you suspect there is a layer of serious hardened crude in the bottom of the sump, drop it and clean it, one every ten years will suffice. Most greased joints are now sealed for life ie 20 odd years.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

Good points.

Combustion products include water, which in turn dissociates by its own peculiar chemistry (especially in contact with metals), to provide the very oxygen that eats all our toys.

I grew up with "classic" cars (only sort I could afford to buy) eg. 1950 Vauxhall Wyvern, with a raging 12 HP when new. (Bought for Oz $100 in 1974 with barely 18 thousand miles on the clock in 24 years). Family fleet included a '48 Mercury, a '50 Ford Prefect and a '55 Customline. My dad was a motor mechanic who had cut his teeth on Model T and A Fords before spending WW2 muttering darkly about Blitz trucks and Bren Carriers. Our family fleet of old bangers was simple enough for even me to work on. Basic servicing required that the sump be drained and refreshed every THOUSAND miles. Both the cars AND the oils have improved significantly since then.