Lee Enfield match

[Frederick303]

Gents,

My club is considering doing a “Bisley in Bucks County Match” based on the UK competitive rules between 1919 and 1968. This post is to see if there is any interest in such a match. We are located in Doylestown PA, at the intersection of RT 611 and RT 202. The tentative date is either the second week of October or third week of October, 2015. The targets to be used will be Tin hats, (the half bull) and the falling plate target, colored grey both following the 5V scoring system. The match would be fired at 100 yards and any rifle zeroed to point of aim @ 100 yards would be ideal. The match would have medals awarded for each stage and for the aggregate.

Here is a tentative list of the matches to be held that day:

SR Match (SR(A), SR(B) and Home Guard rifle):
The SR match will have 5 stages of fire of 7 shots each for a total of 175 points. There will be 5 sighters, requiring a total of 40 rounds.

Stage 1) Prone-slow supported: 2-sighters and 7 rounds for record in 9 minutes.
Stage 2) Prone-snap fire: 7 rounds for record, 7 seconds/shot.
Stage 3) Sitting-rapid: 1 sighter and 7 rounds for record in 45 seconds.
Stage 4) Standing/Standing to kneeling snap: 1-sighter and 7 shots for record, 7 sec/shot
Stage 5) Prone-slow fire unsupported: 1-sighter and 7 shots for record in 8 minutes

Macnaghten (Scotland forever) (SR(A) and Home Guard rifle):

Shooter has 110 seconds to fire up to 25 rounds at two coffin lid targets. Shooters will begin standing with an empty rifle grounded on the mat. Ammunition may be clipped. When the command “targets” is given the shooter may get in any unsupported position and fire as many rounds as possible in the time limit allowed at the targets in his lane.
For each hit in excess of 9 on each target, the extra on each target totaled and squared. (2 targets, one with 11, one with 12, is 2x2 + 3x3 = 13 bonus added to raw score) Each target must have at 9+ hits in the black to get the bonus maximum possible score: 125

HMS Victoria Memorial elimination (Finals) SR(A), SR(B) and Home Guard rifle

The highest half of shooters in the SR match will have a shoot off in the prone unsupported position. No sighters, same rifle to be used as in SR match. After each shot, scores are checked and shooters not meeting the threshold below will leave the line, with that shot being that last scored. (2 relays)

Shot number 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Minimum score 2 3 4 4 5 5 5 V V V
to remain

The Lord Chelmsford (Grand aggregate) SR(A) or Home Guard rifle:
Sum of the Service rifle, the Macnaghten, and HMS Victoria Memorial matches

Non-aggregate match:
The General Colley: (sniper rifle) (Any rifle on program)
Sniper match, prone supported, (5 shots), prone unsupported (slow) and sitting unsupported/standing supported (5 shots), no sighters. 15-rounds for record, Hun head target, Coaching allowed.

Any interest?

Information

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[303tom]

What would the rifle specification`s be ?........................

[Frederick303]

APPENDIX: 3

Rifle Definitions:

1) SR(A): .303 English service rifle in as-issued condition, excluding sniper rifle variations. The rifles must have original rear pattern sight, issue front sight and issued wood configuration. Rear sight opening may vary. Stocking configuration must be original and no barrel packing is allowed. Trigger pulls must be in excess of 5.0 lbs. If a sling is attached it must be attached to both front and rear sling swivels and be a 1908 Mills web sling or 1914 leather sling. The sling may not be used for support other then as a hasty sling. The following unmodified models may be used:

a) CLLE Mk I, Mk I*
b) SMLE/No 1 Mk I***, Mk III, Mk III*, Mk IV. MkV
c) P14/No 3 Mk I, Mk I*, Mk II,
d) No 4 Mk I, MK I*, Mk II, Mk 1/2, Mk I/3)
e) No 5 MK I


2) SR(B): Any of the above service rifles, including sniper variants and shortened long lees, utilizing iron sights. The following modifications may be made to these rifles:

b) Trigger weight lowered to 4.0 pounds.
c) An aperture rear sight using existing holes in the action body may be fitted. In the case of the Lee Enfield, an adjustable sight of non-standard form may be fitted to the rear sight bed.
d) A front sight post of non-standard dimensions may be fitted.
e) The wood and metal parts may be specially fitted for maximum accuracy. Barrel packing is allowed. Metal attachments to maintain alignment and rigidity may be included, as long as the weight does not exceed 2 oz. Action bodies may not be glass bedded, but may have glued wooden inserts to maintain draws.
f) In the case of the SMLE and the shortened Lee-Enfield, a heavier barrel may be fitted, as long as the internal dimensions are maintained.
g) A swivel may be fitted in front of, or in place of the guard screw for use with a two point sling. No US pattern M1907 slings, though English pattern 2 point target slings of up to 1.5 inch width may be used.


3) Home Guard: Any rifle with conventional military iron sights used in significant numbers by the Home Guard of the UK, Canada, South Africa of Australia between 1914 and 1945, including LDV and VDC use. Trigger pressure must exceed 3.5 pounds.

a) M1917 (M1903 and M1903A3 are not eligible)
b) Any variant of Canadian Ross rifle
c) .303 Martini-Enfield (as issued)
d) Lee-Medford/ Lee-Enfield Mk I, MkI*, MkII
e) Any .303 SMLE (or earlier Lee) with cut back wood (sported)



4) Sniper Rifle

Any English or officially issued Dominions .303caliber rifle, originally issued as a sniper rifle and in use between 1914 and 1968. The rifle may be fired with the issued optic or iron sights. SR (B) rifles are not eligible to shoot unless they met the rules below:

a) The wood stocks and bedding must be as issued
b) The optics and optics mount may be reproductions, but must be of the exact pattern issued. No modern optics allowed.
c) If iron sights are used, the front post must be of the exact pattern as issue rifle; front sight post width must be service width.
d) WWI SMLE rifles may use WWI pattern rear target sights.
e) US pattern M1907 sling may be used on No 4 rifles, SMLE rifles must use M1908 mills pattern or M1914 leather pattern sling. Slings may be used as single point, 2-point or hasty sling.

[Peter Laidler]

That's a very interesting set of rules Fred because at my sons school Cadet Force (he's long left now of course but they call them CCF's in the UK) they had at one time 4x ex Army No4T's (purchased directly in the 50's for £6 each I was told.....) less telescopes that as I understand it, they used as standard telescope-less rifles in SRA shoots. Presumably on the basis that they were more accurate than the standard CCF issued No4 rifles.

They also had a matching number of specially adapted P-H 5 sights that were spaced at the rear, that bolted into the backsight axis pin hole and ejector screw - as per normal. This way they would clear the rear tele mounting pad. The top adjustment plates were also spaced accordingly of course. This way the rifles could be used in SRB shoots and/or a combination of whatever else was happening on the day. The rifles were returned to Ordnance (?) in the early 80's when good .303" ammo was in short supply or so but the special sights remained on an oil soaked cloth on a cupboard shelf until a couple of years ago when I was asked to dispose of them.

The then Warrant Officer of the Military TRaining Team told me that this was a common ploy among competitive schools and units so that the team of 4 (or 6) could use the same rifle for several competitions over several days or weekends by a simple change of sling and backsight - or whatever. I 'liberated' one of the 'spaced' sights and thought that I'd pulled a fast one as I'd disposed of the others but should have realised that as 'public stores purchased using public funds' they were all accountable and the paper trail NEVER ends. So I had to make a token donation to clear the books and close the matter. The explanation explains exactly what they were up to.

I did make a detailed search of the complex to see whether there were any No32's remaining but I don't think that they came with them

[ArtioZen]

I am in for pound or a penny! Will watch this space and see if I can pursuade anybody else to show an interest from within or without the forum. Sounds like we are neighbors Frederick!

[Frederick303]

Peter,

The reason for limiting the as issue rifles to….well non-snipers is really one of appearances. Given that the No 4 T rifles are nothing more than a selected service grade rifle we might have to rethink that if enough folks want a scope less T rifle to be suitable for use as a SR(A) rifle.

As regards to why the use of a sniper is more of an issue in the US, if you look at our history of as-issue arms matches, it starts as absolutely as-issue and within a decade typically ends up with the arms winning being very expensive upper end arms specifically designed for that specific match. A good example is the US M1 Garand matches, started in 1998. By 2012 the rifles were basically National Match rifles pattern 1, which is all optimizations short of glass bedding. Now the reason glass bedding was allowed in the first place (Circa 1956 to 1959) was it was cheaper, easier, less time consuming and required much less skill to allow a rifle to be epoxy bedded once the stock had some grain crush, than requiring a new stock be hand fitted in the correct manner with the correct draws.

It is by such small steps that as-issue rifles become match tuned rifles.