Common Knowledge or Received Wisdom?

[Peter Laidler]

But back to where we started........... I spoke to a 1936 era Armourer apprentice colleague this weekend who started his time as an old Ordnance Corps Armourer as opposed to us later , post 1942 REME Armourers. Cut-Offs. He says that so far as his and general military training in particular was concerned, there was no instruction on the use of the cut-off beyond the fact that it should be closed for Drill purposes only but open for all other purposes such as weaapon training and shooting.

As far as the Armouring side of life, then, as he told me many years ago, where a cut-off was fitted, then it remained simply to fill the slot. Nothing more or less. But when a new fore-end was fitted, it if was a later pattern high sided fore-end which would cover the existing slot, then the cut-off was removed and '...returned to Ordnance through the usual channels....' The same applied to other improved features.

He also clarified another point - or blurred the point........... Once the cut-off was removed and a high side fore-end was fitted, then that fact alone DID NOT alter the status of the rifle as marked on the body. It was STILL a Mk3 rifle as marked on the body because it is the BODY that identified the Mk/type of rifle and NOT the absence of a cut-off. So a Mk3 rifle, marked as a Mk3 will always remain a Mk3. Already I can see this raising eyebrows but I say it as I was told. And rifles in service were never retro modified except where it was '....in the extingencies of the service.....' and he quotes using an obsolete part when a current part isn't available

As for the volley fire sights remaining in UK service at unit level, then these were all slowly removed, the hole simply plugged and contours made off good.

[browningautorifle]

And here we are trying to bring them back to "Original and correct"...

[5thBatt]

But back to where we started........... I spoke to a 1936 era Armourer apprentice colleague this weekend who started his time as an old Ordnance Corps Armourer as opposed to us later , post 1942 REME Armourers. Cut-Offs. He says that so far as his and general military training in particular was concerned, there was no instruction on the use of the cut-off beyond the fact that it should be closed for Drill purposes only but open for all other purposes such as weaapon training and shooting.

As far as the Armouring side of life, then, as he told me many years ago, where a cut-off was fitted, then it remained simply to fill the slot. Nothing more or less. But when a new fore-end was fitted, it if was a later pattern high sided fore-end which would cover the existing slot, then the cut-off was removed and '...returned to Ordnance through the usual channels....' The same applied to other improved features.

He also clarified another point - or blurred the point........... Once the cut-off was removed and a high side fore-end was fitted, then that fact alone DID NOT alter the status of the rifle as marked on the body. It was STILL a Mk3 rifle as marked on the body because it is the BODY that identified the Mk/type of rifle and NOT the absence of a cut-off. So a Mk3 rifle, marked as a Mk3 will always remain a Mk3. Already I can see this raising eyebrows but I say it as I was told. And rifles in service were never retro modified except where it was '....in the extingencies of the service.....' and he quotes using an obsolete part when a current part isn't available

As for the volley fire sights remaining in UK service at unit level, then these were all slowly removed, the hole simply plugged and contours made off good.

Which brings us back around to my earlier post.

Its quite simple really, you just have to read (not read into) the LoC of 1916

First part introduces modifications to the future manufacture of the MkIII

Second part introduces the MkIII* which being the same as a MkIII but without the cutoff or slot so may embody the modifications made to the MkIII mentioned in part 1 of the LoC

in short, after 1916 there were two models, the MkIII & the MkIII* so as the cutoff was not omitted it cannot be re-introduced as it was never omitted, rifles retro-fitted with cutoff were simple converted to MkIIIs hence the strike out of the *

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...LoC19161-1.jpg

Note part 2 of the LoC, it describes the difference between a MkIII & MkIII* as being the slot, no actual reference to the cutoff plate being present, just able to accept it.
Now this does not mean that after the introduction of the LoC the MkIII had just the slot & no plate, the simple fact is the LoC in part 1 lists the changes to the MkIII & (& this is the important bit) does NOT mention the omission of the plate, in fact it goes on to mention what to do when fitting a 'high wall' forend to a rifle with the cutoff plate & that is to modify the forend & not remove the cutoff plate.
Page 161 TLE for those who have it.

[jrhead75]

He also clarified another point - or blurred the point........... Once the cut-off was removed and a high side fore-end was fitted, then that fact alone DID NOT alter the status of the rifle as marked on the body. It was STILL a Mk3 rifle as marked on the body because it is the BODY that identified the Mk/type of rifle and NOT the absence of a cut-off. So a Mk3 rifle, marked as a Mk3 will always remain a Mk3. Already I can see this raising eyebrows but I say it as I was told.

Most assuredly clarifying rather than blurring...eyebrows fully at rest.

[5thBatt]

I wonder if what Peters 1936 era mate was talking about post 1941 practice when fitting a high sided forend, MkIIIs were still being produced till 1941 & certainly in Lithgows case still making cutoff plates, I have owned a couple of 1941Lithgows with MA41 marked cutoff plates in place, still have one fwiw.

[Bindi2]

I wonder if what Peters 1936 era mate was talking about post 1941 practice when fitting a high sided forend, MkIIIs were still being produced till 1941 & certainly in Lithgows case still making cutoff plates, I have owned a couple of 1941Lithgows with MA41 marked cutoff plates in place, still have one fwiw.

A bit slow in Aussie you know 5th

[Peter Laidler]

Simple. If a Mk3 of ANY date was later fitted with a high fore-end at an Ord workshop, it went OUT with a high sider and the C-O removed. C-O's played no part in the Military Training programme. Same as if an adjustable type back sight leaf was defective. If parts available (always a big if during wartime he reassures me.....) always replace with current fixed type leaf.

While we're here, he also mentioned some other bits such as get rid of the large nose cap screw by countersinking and insert later flush fitting screw. And something that I'd never heard of. New backsight axis pins didn't have a head, collar and retaining pin. It was just a straight pin with countersunk ends that could be opened to retain - like the Sterling SMG butt axis pins!

[Smellymarkfive]

Simple. If a Mk3 of ANY date was later fitted with a high fore-end at an Ord workshop, it went OUT with a high sider and the C-O removed. C-O's played no part in the Military Training programme. Same as if an adjustable type back sight leaf was defective. If parts available (always a big if during wartime he reassures me.....) always replace with current fixed type leaf.

While we're here, he also mentioned some other bits such as get rid of the large nose cap screw by countersinking and insert later flush fitting screw. And something that I'd never heard of. New backsight axis pins didn't have a head, collar and retaining pin. It was just a straight pin with countersunk ends that could be opened to retain - like the Sterling SMG butt axis pins!

My 2A has that kind of pin, I thought they all did?

[Peter Laidler]

I would imagine that a lot of the things he mentioned to me were inter-war or just wartime economy patterns. I'm speaking again face to face in September so will take a rifle. It just shows the importance of speaking to these old technical ex-apprentices blokes and getting all this stuff recorded.