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    Legacy Member bob4wd's Avatar
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    Mil-surp grading system

    My collection of mil-surp rifles runs the gamut from sad to excellent, and everything in-between, much like most others, I imagine. I'm currently involved in inventorying them for my heirs, along with brief detailed descriptions, so they'll at least have some idea of what's there. Maybe that'll help them get a decent price when the time comes.
    Along those lines, I'm trying to come up with a 100-point-maximum grading system to help. Actually, it helps me somewhat too to remain objective.
    So this is what I've com up with so far:
    1. Metal condition (rust, pits, defacements): 20 points max
    2. Wood condition (gouges, cracks, dents): 10 points max
    3. Bore : 10 points max
    4. Matching numbers (original): 20 points, if force-matched: 10 points max
    5. Non-import: 10 points
    6. Visible repairs, replaced parts, etc.: 10 points max
    7. Non-bubba'd (sanded, refinished, scope mount holes, etc.): 20 points max
    All this assumes non-sporterized, of course
    And the criteria I struggled with the most- if factory refinished, modified, repaired, counterbored, etc. (think Mosin-Nagant): deduct 20 points.
    I had a problem with this criteria because one could argue that a gun should be judged on how it left the factory or arsenal the last time, not how it was built originally. Maybe.
    So a perfect, mint rifle would be 100. One with typical but minor dings in the wood might be 95, sharp but dull bore might cost 5 points, a K98icon with a couple of non-matching screw heads might lose a point or two, a repaired ejector could cost 5 more.
    Any and all thoughts and/or suggestion welcomed.
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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

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    I have never gotten that specific, and don't think it can be carried across the board. I've milsurps from flintlock on. Most need to be in good working order, but some are mostly for historical or design interest. So they would be graded completely differently than something that gets multiple trips to the range.

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    Legacy Member Eaglelord17's Avatar
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    Personally I have a hard enough time applying the NRA standard to firearms, just because you need to rate it so the other party will also agree (when in doubt go for the lower rating). Your heirs if they are not to interested in firearms will likely not be able to apply that list, and it would get confusing very quickly. Also it would be easier to grade it on NRA standards as there is information out there to let them know approximately what the value of the firearm is in that condition is.

    What I would do is make a list of the firearms, detailing if it is all matching etc. and any special features that would give it a little boost on price (i.e. this Steyr M95 is worth a bit more as it hasn't been converted to 8x56r, or this No. 1 Mk. 3 is worth more because it still has the volley sights and magazine cutoff). I would also put the NRA standard condition rating on each one of them (in your opinion) so they know at least where to start looking value wise.

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    Legacy Member WarPig1976's Avatar
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    The problem with personal based grading systems is will the market agree with your assessment. In matters such as this there has to be a set standard and one already exists. Well two, the NRA grading system and what the market will bear.
    Let's be honest, best case you have a kid or two who will take over stewardship or maybe a nephew. But sooner or later our toys are going to be sold off quickly and on the cheap. Hopefully the money goes to some good for our heirs and not some unborn great grandchild's heroin addiction for penny's on the dollar.
    This is why I'm getting buried with mine....

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    Contributing Member Aragorn243's Avatar
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    Bob,

    I have to agree with the others. There already is a grading system in place that is widely accepted and has been the standard for many years and not likely to be replaced.

    I keep a rather simple record which includes descriptive information of the rifle (not condition), price paid, and an estimated current value which is based on condition which I update periodically as things change. This is simply to be used as a guide if I'm not around to help with the disposal of the items. I consider the price I paid to be critical, I don't want them losing money due to my hobby. Anything above that is a benefit but as I tend to be patient and pay low, I'm hoping they can profit, thus the current estimated value. In the end, it all comes down to what a buyer is willing to pay. They just need enough information to not get ripped off.

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    Legacy Member bob4wd's Avatar
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    Thread Starter
    I guess I wasn't too clear on this. My major intent for this is to attempt a way to objectively grade a "collectors" rifle, which is very hard to do. Not for anybody else, but for me as much as my heirs. Maybe even more for me!
    The NRA and other systems work well for sporting rifles, where appearance and bore are probably the major considerations.
    Our kinds of guns, however, rely on more subjective and intangible factors. It'd be nice if they all had matching numbers, no rust, original finish, no bubba mods, etc. but those guns are not really all that common anymore, certainly not in my collection. So we have to attempt to judge collectibility by what "good" features out-weigh the "bad" ones.
    Maybe all of you can afford to buy only pristine examples (probably no more than I can!), but I pretty much have to get what I can when and where it becomes available
    How does one judge if all-matching outweighs a sanded stock? Or perfect original wood outweighs a scope-mounting hole? Or a completely original gun outweighs a sewer-pipe bore? Or vice versa. And so on. I know I have my ideas of relative desireable features, they're listed above. Doesn't make me right.
    Hence the numerical values- they at least introduce some measure of objectivity.
    What I was hoping to get from you guys were comments more along the lines of import marks don't mean much, or matching overrules everything, or bore should count for more, or bubbafied should subtract more, or whatever. Think of it as an educational moment for newbies.
    Last edited by bob4wd; 05-15-2015 at 10:27 PM.

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    Contributing Member Aragorn243's Avatar
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    It's all personal preference. There are guys on here that don't give a crap what it looks like or if it matches so long as it shoot accurately. I personally will take anything so long as it's functional and I'm not adverse to cleaning it up where others won't touch it to clean even the dirt off it.

    It even gets down to specific rifles. It seems the Garand and M1icon Carbine guys don't care so much if it's fixed up, cleaned up, sanded, rebuilt or if it has import marks other than the hard core guys. K98icon collectors will take an all matching rifle over one with a good bore.

    I personally would not take a rifle that has been drilled and tapped, not for my "collection" anyway. Cut metal would be another non-starter. Cut wood yes if the price is right but I have to figure in replacing it and the missing metal. All matching is nice but not a requirement although I would pay a bit more for an all matching and pass on the non-matching if two came up at the same time.

    When I started this a few years ago, I was getting beat to crap rifles and restoring them. Really like doing that. The longer I'm in it the more I look for better rifles that require less but at the same time, the kids are more or less out of the house now and our finances have changed to give me that liberty. I've even started trading off the early rifles which I thought I'd never be able to do. But a $90 Chileanicon Mauser turned into a $300 Indian MK I with a bayonet and box of ammo thrown in a month ago.

    When I look at a rifle to buy, I get pretty specific in weird ways. I don't need matching numbers, perfect stocks or metal, but I do want one that will shoot, preferably accurate enough to hit someone at 100 yards but doesn't have to be MOA. When I'm done with it, I want it to look like something a soldier would have carried during whatever war the rifle is from. I don't shoot much but I do like to give presentations. When I get a rifle, it has to have the basics, magazine, cleaning rods/kits, muzzle covers, slings, bayonets, etc. I will accept reproduction slings and some parts because these things got replaced in normal use. I don't like safe queens. I have one and don't really know what to do with it. Can't do anything but put it in a padded sock and carefully show it to a couple people in the house. Not much fun in that. It's an Enfield No 4 that's never been fired. I got it at a yard sale cheap and couldn't pass it up but now reluctant to sell it. It is awful pretty. I have one Carcano with a sewer bore I'm afraid to shoot and a Chinese Hanyang that I'm not afraid to shoot but don't see much point as the bullets just drop through the bore. Can't imagine it's very accurate. Most are well used, rebuilt/refurbished but in good working order. I used to have a requirement that ammo has to be available for it but I dropped that last year and now have three that I have no ammo for and a fourth that is very, very hard to find.

    So my requirements would be hard to objectively quantify compared to most other collectors. You said 20 points for metal condition. But what if it was refurbished? I searched for 3 years for a VZ24 and ended up finding one that has almost no finish left but has no rust, no pitting, etc. It's just a good honest rifle that didn't go through a refurbishment and I like it. Would I buy a Carcano in the same condition, no way. Most US rifles went through several rebuilds, new barrels, new finish etc. With those unless you want to spend a fortune, you have to accept post war modifications. My Garand is a 1944 but the barrel is from the '50's and the primary stock is birch. Not exactly a WWII rifle anymore but it's the closest I'm going to get. My carbine is a mixmaster with a bayonet lug that may or may not be original. Production date from most sources say it's too early but I've seen a couple that question that.

    I just think there are too many variables from rifle type to rifle type and from collector type to shooter type to have an objective system.

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