Desperately Need Help Authenticating Jungle Carbine!

[mahbann]

Hey guys so I bought a British Enfield No5 Mk1 "Jungle Carbine" for about 350-400 bucks. I've spent the past week trying to figure out if what I have is original or not. I've probably read every forum, blog, article, etc including tikirocker's survey. my bolt, barrel, and receiver have matching numbers. I have the lightening cuts into the barrel under the forearm, cuts on the receiver, flash hider, bolt that is partially hollowed out", and distinct step beneath back sight. There are 3 things i'm worried about. Mine says it's made in FAZAKERLEY but theirs a giant "B" on the barrel which I'd assume meant BSA. I also don't know if my action cover loop is a no4 or no5. My sight also goes to 1300 not 800 and on it it says BCR 670 so I'm assuming I have a no4 sight? Do these random things mean it's a fake? Is it possible that someone put a no4 sight on it? I also don't know if this is an import or export and there are strange markings everywhere on it. If someone could please help me figure out what I have I would greatly appreciate it For the sake of the pictures I'm removing the top wooden piece. I'm just confused as to why their would be a B on the barrel if it's from Faz and why there would randomly be a no4 sight on it. I'm also having shooting problems..could the no4 sight be why It's shooting all over the place? when I first took it shooting it was shooting groupings wayyy to the left so when I obviously aimed to the right it hit middle. This was at 25 yards. I noticed the front sight was offset to the right so I bronze punched the front site to the left into the middle and once I did that I couldn't even get a grouping at 25 yards the shots were all over the place and at 50 it wasnt even hitting paper. I've heard they are inaccurate but not that bad..If this carbine does check out to be original does anyone know where I could get a rear no5 sight because I can't seem to find them anywhere. Thank you guys so much for your help!


much respect and appreciation,

Navid

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[SpikeDD]

From everything I'm seeing here, it's a 100% genuine Mk.5. The "B" on the barrel wouldn't necessarily mean "BSA" in 1945. M47/C would be the military BSA code by then. ( I could certainly be wrong here and stand waiting to be corrected ) You may see the M47/C (BSA) stamped on one side of the flash hider but don't worry if it is. Many Fazakerley Mk.5's are fitted with them and it is quite normal. The rear sight has simply been changed for whatever reason and it happens to be a post war BSA manufactured sight. These "B" marked milled rear sights were only made by BSA for their non-government FTR program post war. The correct rear sights for these turn up often enough on E-Bay...just keep your eyes open. If you run into a brick wall, I have a few around somewhere.

[mahbann]

From everything I'm seeing here, it's a 100% genuine Mk.5. The "B" on the barrel wouldn't necessarily mean "BSA" in 1945. M47/C would be the military BSA code by then. ( I could certainly be wrong here and stand waiting to be corrected ) You may see the M47/C (BSA) stamped on one side of the flash hider but don't worry if it is. Many Fazakerley Mk.5's are fitted with them and it is quite normal. The rear sight has simply been changed for whatever reason and it happens to be a post war BSA manufactured sight. These "B" marked milled rear sights were only made by BSA for their non-government FTR program post war. The correct rear sights for these turn up often enough on E-Bay...just keep your eyes open. If you run into a brick wall, I have a few around somewhere.

that would be awesome and i'd be humble/grateful if you had any lying around! I would definitely have to send you a "you are amazing" cake! Do you know by chance what that marking is in the 3rd picture? on the right of the receiver?

[jrhead75]

Do you know by chance what that marking is in the 3rd picture? on the right of the receiver?

It's part of the commercial proof marking by the London proof house.

[mahbann]

It's part of the commercial proof marking by the London proof house.

Thanks man! I didn't know that. Soooo this rifle is for sure an original? A gentleman today at my local gun range told me that it was 100 percent fake because it had a no4 sight on it and that never occurs/isn't common. He told me that very few no5's were imported to the US therefore finding a real one is nearly impossible. I was going to return the rifle tomorrow because of what he had told me!

[Kiwi]

Looks legit to me. Change out the rear sight if you must. Apply some linseed oil to the woodwork and enjoy it. Good score!

[Peter Laidler]

Ive probably seen a couple of thousand No5's and can tell yopu with certainty that yours is correct. As everyone here has told you, just get a readily available No5 backsight and you're home and dry.

The one minor point is that the front of the fore-end looks like it's been made-off. I mean that usually, the curvature to the tip is much more roundly pronounced as oipposed to a gentle taper like yours. When we were working on them, if there was (almost inevitably.....) rust between the fore-end end cap and the wood, we would remove the steel end cap and make off the wood to get rid of all the rust contaminants. It could be that some Armourer somewhere in the East has done this.

Get the fore-end fitted correctly by someone who knows what he's doing and it'll shoot reasonably accurately even with the No4 backsight. You ain't never going to win prizes but you'll have fun

[Alan de Enfield]

Unfortunately the other website you posted your question on has given its usual load of bovine excrement and totally wrong information - go by what the guys here are saying and you will get the correct info.

I cannot believe these comments :

"very few no5's were imported to the US therefore finding a real one is nearly impossible"

"tikirocker stated if it's a no4 sight then it's possibly a fake "

[CINDERS]

What I would do also is take the bottom wood off whilst the top wood is off and have a look at the draws to see if they are flogged out remember to tap it downwards at the receiver end do not just pull it straight off by the front there is info on how to remove the bottom woods contained on this site. Pictures would help of the bottom wood looking down from the top the chaps here could then give an honest opinion on what they see (clear pics). Just one thing I did was with the Guard front trigger screw done up try to see if the action rocks fore and aft by alternating pressure on the rear of the receiver and where the barrel meets the fore wood. Why do I ask this, simple my T rocked fore and aft like a rocking horse with its date on fire as the screw was not pulling it down far enough and the previous owner must have had a group like the Eiffel tower the subsequent recoiling mashed the draws so they looked like a dandelion . Also see if it has the collar that sits between the trigger guard and the action there is info on how to fit one of those. Always ask especially here as the integrity and honesty of the people with the knowledge and experience is brilliant, the bloke who said it was a fake well maybe there was a hidden agenda as the 5's do command a reasonable price. Me thinks that his brain cell (1 of suspended in a vacuum) was full of gunga! Have fun bloke the enfield infection grows on ya trust me they multiply.........

[Seaspriter]

First, ditto the opinions above. It's the real deal, just swap out the back sight for the No. 5 version (which is actually calibrated differently from the No.4 because of the shorter carbine barrel length.)

That, however doesn't explain the erratic shooting. Cinder's situation was similar to mine with one of my Jungle Carbines, which was in beautiful aesthetic condition when I bought it:

What I would do also is take the bottom wood off whilst the top wood is off and have a look at the draws to see if they are flogged out remember to tap it downwards at the receiver end do not just pull it straight off by the front there is info on how to remove the bottom woods contained on this site. Pictures would help of the bottom wood looking down from the top the chaps here could then give an honest opinion on what they see (clear pics). Just one thing I did was with the Guard front trigger screw done up try to see if the action rocks fore and aft by alternating pressure on the rear of the receiver and where the barrel meets the fore wood. Why do I ask this, simple my T rocked fore and aft like a rocking horse with its date on fire as the screw was not pulling it down far enough and the previous owner must have had a group like the Eiffel tower the subsequent recoiling mashed the draws so they looked like a dandelion . Also see if it has the collar that sits between the trigger guard and the action there is info on how to fit one of those

When I put pressure on the trigger, the barrel actually moved about 1/8th inch, BEFORE it fired. No wonder it was all over the place. The problems (similar to what Cinders states):
1) the trigger guard bolt collar and lock washer were missing
2) the hole in the forend where the collar should have been had become worn, was eccentric, and 50% larger than it should have been (it should have fit tight around the collar), hence a good portion of the sloppiness.
3) the drawers were worn and sloppy and needed rebuilding,
all resulting a gun that wouldn't hit the target. Your gun looks like the wood has not had a gentle life. I'd take Cinder's advice first, then check what Captain Laidler has advised. I've learned a boat-load listening to the wisdom of the ages on this website.

Jungle carbines can be (if not overheated) reasonably accurate guns (several YouTube videos show tight groupings with #5s.)