Jungle Carbine Import/Export Marks

[mahbann]

Some great guys on here helped me authenticate my jungle carbine but I am curious as to why I cannot find the "england" export mark or any import marks. Does that mean that my rifle stayed in England?

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[Beerhunter]

Some great guys on here helped me authenticate my jungle carbine but I am curious as to why I cannot find the "england" export mark or any import marks. Does that mean that my rifle stayed in England?

"England" is not an export mark because we don't have them. It was a Country of Origin mark that was required by the US authorities.

Looking at the picture of your rifle, I see that it has been Proofed in London at some point after it left service. (This is legal a requirement for any non-governmental sale.)

I have no idea why some firearms appear to get into the US without pre-1968 GCA Country of Origin marks or 1968 GCA Import Marks.

[mahbann]

"England" is not an export mark because we don't have them. It was a Country of Origin mark that was required by the US authorities.

Looking at the picture of your rifle, I see that it has been Proofed in London at some point after it left service. (This is legal a requirement for any non-governmental sale.)

I have no idea why some firearms appear to get into the US without pre-1968 GCA Country of Origin marks or 1968 GCA Import Marks.

So I guess that's a good thing that mine doesn't have an import mark? (least that I'm aware of) Mine also doesn't have "England" marked anywhere on it either (least where it's usually found.)

[Beerhunter]

So I guess that's a good thing that mine doesn't have an import mark? (least that I'm aware of)

Some collectors in the US are little anal about such marks.

BTW, a huge number of Lee-Enfields were exported/imported by Sam Cummings's Interarms. They all have Birmingham Proof marks because they were Proofed at Interarms in Manchester by an "outpost" of the Birmingham Proof House. As far as I know they all carried the "England" mark.

[mahbann]

Some collectors in the US are little anal about such marks.

BTW, a huge number of Lee-Enfields were exported/imported by Sam Cummings's Interarms. They all have Birmingham Proof marks because they were Proofed at Interarms in Manchester by an "outpost" of the Birmingham Proof House. As far as I know they all carried the "England" mark.

yea see I dont have any BP mark all I have is the NP which I think is just the nitro proof before 1954 for London and I have the London commercial proof but no "England" stamped anywhere on the rifle :/

[Seaspriter]

If you missed the enlightening conversation between Beerhunter and Captain Laidler today about proof marks, here's their conversation:

Seaspriter: Was the Birmingham Proof House a separate, independent entity from Birmingham Small Arms (BSA)?

Beerhunter: Yes. Absolutely. http://www.gunproof.com/ And there is an older Proof House in London Worshipful Company of Gunmakers Between them they have a Statutory responsibility for gun Proof in the UK .

Peter Laidler: Proof houses..... They really are nothing more than self perpetuating quasi autonomous non government organisations - or QUANGO's for short. who answer to............., well, nobody really knows! Let me put it like this.......... The way the quaint old 1860 rules were written and re-written since, when the UK Military buy weapons from abroad - and we ain't talking third world here but the likes of the USA and Canada ..... and I mean well tried and tested weapons, like M-16's, Miniguns and L116's plus pressure bearing spares then regardless of the proofing or strict manufacturing processes/regime in the manufacturing Country, they have to be re-proofed in the UK at great cost. I mean, what does that say.......

And guess what - again......... The quaint 1860 rules mean that even a blow-back unlocked open bolt fired SMG barrel has to be proofed! Whatever for........? Even in service, even if it were made of the mildest of one-way trip mild steel, It CANNOT fail because the bloody breech block is blowing back!

Ain't answered your Q SS but you can see where I'm coming from

Beerhunter: Couldn't agree more Peter.

There was time when they served a purpose but their testing methods are now archaic and in recent years they have started to get above themselves - making it up as they go along.

We have an opportunity to sort them out soon when the Law Commission looks at Firearms law.

BTW, there is no requirement in law for the Government to have firearms Proofed - they are exempt.

[mahbann]

If you missed the enlightening conversation between Beerhunter and Captain Laidler today about proof marks, here's their conversation:

Seaspriter: Was the Birmingham Proof House a separate, independent entity from Birmingham Small Arms (BSA)?

Beerhunter: Yes. Absolutely. http://www.gunproof.com/ And there is an older Proof House in London Worshipful Company of Gunmakers Between them they have a Statutory responsibility for gun Proof in the UK .

Peter Laidler: Proof houses..... They really are nothing more than self perpetuating quasi autonomous non government organisations - or QUANGO's for short. who answer to............., well, nobody really knows! Let me put it like this.......... The way the quaint old 1860 rules were written and re-written since, when the UK Military buy weapons from abroad - and we ain't talking third world here but the likes of the USA and Canada ..... and I mean well tried and tested weapons, like M-16's, Miniguns and L116's plus pressure bearing spares then regardless of the proofing or strict manufacturing processes/regime in the manufacturing Country, they have to be re-proofed in the UK at great cost. I mean, what does that say.......

And guess what - again......... The quaint 1860 rules mean that even a blow-back unlocked open bolt fired SMG barrel has to be proofed! Whatever for........? Even in service, even if it were made of the mildest of one-way trip mild steel, It CANNOT fail because the bloody breech block is blowing back!

Ain't answered your Q SS but you can see where I'm coming from

Beerhunter: Couldn't agree more Peter.

There was time when they served a purpose but their testing methods are now archaic and in recent years they have started to get above themselves - making it up as they go along.

We have an opportunity to sort them out soon when the Law Commission looks at Firearms law.

BTW, there is no requirement in law for the Government to have firearms Proofed - they are exempt.

so how come I don't have the "England" country of origin mark?

[Seaspriter]

how come I don't have the "England" country of origin mark?

Lacking the "Country of Origin" mark means, most likely, that your gun came into the country in the 1950s or early 1960s. (see Guns Magazine archives from the late 50s to see fascinating ads for Enfields, Mauser's, etc.)

The Gun Control Act of 1968 tightened up all import rules, which were virtually non-existent up until this time. Remember, Lee Harvey Oswald bought a $19.95 Manlicher Carcano to kill JFK and this set a lot of regulations in motion.

Hope this helps.

BTW, thanks for asking so many questions, that's how we all learn real fast. I learn a vast amount just by having the Milsurps "League of Masters" chime in on so many things.

[Aussie48]

The answers are staring you in the face if you think about it instead of expecting to be spoon fed. It may have been brought into the US by someone who purchased hth rifle in the UK, Australia, NZ or any country that that requirement didn't apply. It may have also been imported into the US before that requirement was made legal, who really gives a Rats Arse it doesn't have one.

[Peter Laidler]

You're right Aussie.......... Just an hour or so browsing the forum first would crack it AND save repeating things over and over and...........