What have i done?

[Robert303]

Thanks for the recent comments. The £100 I referred to was the potential overpayment, taking into account the value of rifle and sights etc. It might have been a bit more. MY fault for getting carried away. I'm still not very happy with the advert, but as the dealer has said he'll take it back I'll not press the point. I may well have a look at any subsequent advert for it.

If I had half the skills of someone like Capt Laidler I would love to build a 'Project Rifle' but I must be honest I don't! Having said that I'm going to have a word with a few dealers I know for a good 'Starter Rifle' and find the right people to do the work. NO drilling the breeching up ring will be Rule 1.

[Seaspriter]

Have you tried simply giving the dealer a call or checking the T&Cs on their website if you bought it online? A returns policy could well be on their website.

As DesperateDan has suggested, it is essential to TALK to the dealer over the phone, or face to face. Remember, the dealer is innocent until proven guilty. While I'm not going to defend the dealer, I do act as mediator periodically and do know a little bit about the issue of trust. It is perfectly reasonable, at this stage, to assume the dealer is simply ignorant or was misinformed by someone else who purported to be an "authority," or was told something by the original owner that he passed along.

Dealers are in the business of buying, selling, and trading. They seldom are detailed experts on one single type of weapon, like the Milsurps experts on this site. The dealer,. more often than not, is somewhat familiar with a multitude of guns, new, used, and antique, but not necessarily an expert on a niche gun like yours. If he's an honest, trustworthy dealer, he will thank you, acknowledge the error, apologize, and take some action to make sure it is a fair arrangement. If he's untrustworthy, then you must take other courses of action.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Glad to hear that the dealer will take it back. I don't know how it is where you live, but over here dealers seem to be well aware that we all talk to each other and that bad behaviour will soon be reported around the network.

Just to cheer you all up, here are two of my "star" purchases that were returned (with apologies from the dealers in both cases):

a) A Le Page percussion double shotgun, with gold inlaid name and address on rose-pattern damascus barrels. It looked drop-dead gorgeous in the photos! But some unspeakable Bubba had arc-welded the front sling swivel and the weld had penetrated into the bores. A write-off for shooting.

b) A 54-cal. 5-shot Tranter percussion revolver which had had a modern replica 45-cal. 6-shot cylinder inserted and fudged to look externally plausible.

With dealers*, I have never had any unsolvable problems. With private on-line purchases I can only advise: assume it is a wall-hanger and value accordingly.


*In this country, that means licensed dealers, with a reputation and a licence to lose.

[Robert303]

Thanks Patrick. Glad to know I'm not the only only one. One does wonder about Bubba and such a shotgun.
That's shades of sawing off a Purdey to do a £500 Post Office job. Private purchases and e bay I'm very careful of esp nowdays.
As you say real licensed dealers are normally more careful. Oddly enough it's not been all negative and various people have given me some ideas.
Hopefully when I'm at Bisley at the Historic Arms Weekend 4th and 5th July I'll the chance to talk to a few people and decide what sort of 'Project
Rifle' I'll go for as I'm getting to the stage where a scope is easier than iron sights but MORE Shooting is probably the real answer!

[Seaspriter]

With private on-line purchases I can only advise: assume it is a wall-hanger and value accordingly.

Patrick, generally speaking, you are right on target with this advice.

I have learned a few techniques for buying from on-line auctions, and so far it has paid off (but I'm not bragging -- that would kill the "lucky streak.). (I know the seasoned buyers know this stuff -- Hope this is useful to some of the younger forum members who have a lot of buying ahead of them to complete their collections.)
- First, I know the fair market value, aim to pay less, never pay full freight, and never get caught up in an auction feeding frenzy.
- Second, I study the photos over and over, and make the assumption that if it just doesn't look right, it's not. Any small sign of Bubba's antics is sufficient to walk away. Any sign of stamps being altered is enough to make me run in the other direction.
- Third, I take a critical approach to everything that's said by the seller, which means any flowery legendary hype requires either hyper-critical analysis (such as lots of great detailed photos) or placing a discount on the bid.
- Fourth, I like to buy guns from an estate that have been sitting in someone's closet for 50 years and have not been restored or monkeyed with. Some sellers of estate weapons don't know diddily about a gun and just want it out of the house or shop. Often in estate sales the wood is just dismal, with coats of oxidized linseed oil having left the gun looking like it just came out of a muddy swamp, turning off most other buyers. I'd rather do the restoration right than buy someone else's glossing varnish job.
- Fifth, while many collectors don't like the FTR'd Enfields, I seek them out (they have "character" and a "real story"), knowing that some expert Armourer (like Captain Laidler's teacher) put the gun in tip-top condition before it was surplused; thus there was no need for Bubba to mess it up. To me, "FTR" is a sign of quality assurance.
- Sixth, if it looks too good to be true, it probably is.
- Seventh, if there is any sign of rust on the gun, be prepared to walk away -- something may be lurking inside, in the barrel, or underneath the forend. A DP stamp means huge "Discounted Price." If the gun is not shootable or needs fixing, whatever you think it will cost to fix it is just half of the real cost. Be sure the parts or expertise is available before making the purchase.
- Eighth, check the Broker's rating and feedback. A+ is essential, with a lot of deals under his belt. Look at the feedback from buyers if there is any doubt. Ask the seller a few questions -- call them up if necessary -- to be sure there is no doubt. A lot can be learned on the phone. A Broker with an A+ rating will not want to lose that rating with a dissatisfied customer.
- Ninth, if there is time and the gun is a unique example, ask your buddies to check it out.
- Tenth, timing is an essential ingredient. If the there are six Jungle Carbines on Gunbroker at the same time, all guns being equal, assume the market is being saturated; let the first 4 or 5 go -- the high-flying buyers will bid high on the first group of guns, and the demand will be lower for the remaining guns, which often can be picked up for a discount.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Seaspriter has said it all. 100% agreement.

[Colonel Enfield]

Not sure on how your return policy works over there but here once you brought it you own it and there ain't no way its going back to the dealer unless you want a court case and try false advertising

I'm afraid that technically that's not actually true - the Australian Consumer Law provides that goods sold by businesses must be fit for their intended purpose, meet their descriptions, etc. In the event they don't, the purchaser is entitled to a replacement, repair or refund.

This is all well and good when buying new goods from established bricks-and-mortar retailers; if you buy a transistor radio (they're still a thing, right?) and it conks out six months later, you can take it back to the shop and are legally entitled to get a new one, get that one fixed or get your money back.

I'm not an expert on consumer law by any stretch of the imagination but it's my understanding it gets a lot murkier with second-hand goods, especially really old stuff and double-especially things from private sales. If the vendor has made it abundantly clear the sale is "as is" (which most private sales generally are, I believe), then it's too bad if turns out that second-hand radio you got turns out to be a knock-off brand held together inside with duct tape and fencing wire, which can only get the Angry Old People talkback AM stations when it's cloudy outside.

Of course, what the consumer legislation says you're entitled to versus how real life actually works can be two different things and as Cinders says, on a second-hand rifle which has been sold in good faith (eg no intent to mislead the buyer) it's possibly going to be a huge pain in the backside to get a refund or rectification unless you're dealing with an established dealer.

Dealers are in the business of buying, selling, and trading. They seldom are detailed experts on one single type of weapon, like the Milsurps experts on this site. The dealer, more often than not, is somewhat familiar with a multitude of guns, new, used, and antique, but not necessarily an expert on a niche gun like yours. If he's an honest, trustworthy dealer, he will thank you, acknowledge the error, apologize, and take some action to make sure it is a fair arrangement. If he's untrustworthy, then you must take other courses of action.

Well said. I agree completely.

[Robert303]

Happy Ending. Refund received and off to Bisley this weekend to buy a starter rifle for the project. Will get a Fultons 'No Drill' mount to try and have a Pecar scope on the way. I just hope that my FAC renewal will not be any more than 2 months overdue and our local range re opens before the summer is over!

[Beerhunter]

Happy Ending. Refund received and off to Bisley this weekend to buy a starter rifle for the project. Will get a Fultons 'No Drill' mount to try and have a Pecar scope on the way. I just hope that my FAC renewal will not be any more than 2 months overdue and our local range re opens before the summer is over!

I hope that you will pop by the HBSA Exhibition on Short Siberia.

[Robert303]

I will try to, but am likely to be stuck on a Trade Stand trying to be 'Civil' to 'Customers' (never my strong point in my full time previous job). I do NOT pretend to be an expert by any means but how some stand hoders who are experts put up with some of the rubbish they hear I do not know. Then there are the 'Sighted Blind' who have to run their sticky fingers over everything as they walk by. Then there are the ------ I think I'll go and lie down now ;-)