Long Branch - Linking Serial Numbers to Month of Production

[Seaspriter]

Several people, including myself, have been curious to link Long Branch Serial Numbers to the actual months when they were produced. (I was able to do this with Savage-Stevens Enfields using extrapolation -- that data is in the Milsurps Knowledge Library.)

To my knowledge, at this point there is no data base linking year of date stamp with estimated month of production. (If I'm wrong, please correct me on this and I will go no further trying to create one).

At this point, I have tracked down enough production data to make a reasonable (+/- 1 month) estimate for the years 1941-1945 and 1950. There are some anomalies that forum members could help resolve:
- the first month of actual production in 1941 (No4.MK1) -- it seems to be very late in the year.
- the last month of production of a No.4 Mk1 (no *) (these all seem to be 1941, none in '42)
- there were several thousand rifles built that have 1941 receivers/1942 barrels (there seems to have been a shortage of barrels in the production ramp-up, thus receivers were built and stamped in 1941 but were not completed until 1942 when they were fitted with barrels. Several rifles have shown up in the listings (0L9595, 1L3851, 1L9585) with '41 receivers & '42 barrels.) I suppose since these were not completed until '42, they are technically 1942 production -- IOW should these be counted as 1942 rifles?
- there is a conflict in the 1941 production data between Skennerton (7,589) and Stratton (over 10,000). This conflict may be because of the conflicting data between what is stamped on the receiver and what actually went out the door -- can anyone clarify?
- In the History of Small Arms Limited- October 1943-March 1946 Prepared by Assistant Manager, T.H.Marshall, Small Arms Limited, 1946. there is very good production data for late 1943 to the end of production in August 1945. However, the production accounts by management don't coincide with the serial numbers. Marshall states there total number of
Rifles produced was 905,731 (including Snipers) plus 7,210 .22" Training rifles (am I correct that these were serialized just like and in sequence with the Mk1*). However, the highest serial numbers for 1945 production is 91L9864 according to Lumpetmine's data. Why the difference of 14,133 rifles?) Could this be at the Mk1(no star) from 1941 was not considered in the final report?
- Marshall's official report states: "Production on this Rifle was stopped as of August 17th, upon receipt of the cancellation of Contract U.N. 8975(70,000 Rifles). All ‘black action’ assemblies as of that date were finished and packed in shipping chests, pending disposition instructions. 9,390 Rifles remained unshipped, and applied against the remainder of this contract." Possibly (probably?) a number of these rifles (or just receivers?) were still available when Korean War production was restarted, because the earliest 1949 production serial numbers are 90L0805 (Skennerton says its a 1945 RCAF rifle) and one showed up upon Lumpetmine's request on this site as 91L0114. Does the difference between the last 1945 production and the earliest 1949 production mean perhaps the 9,390 rifles that were unshipped in 1945 were put in storage (with all the other production machinery) and restamped? (there is some basis for this after reading other posts).
- In what month was production restarted in 1949, and in what month was production complete on the Mk1 in 1950? The last dated 1949 (according to Lumpetmine's data base is 91L9151, and the earliest 1950 is 91L0510 and the last 1950 is 96L0012).
- After 1950, it seems to be a hodgepodge of little contracts, DCRA arrangements, and reconfigurations (like the 1955 27L66XX from 1943) that probably won't make a lot of sense to try to assign a monthly date.

Guys, pardon me if I've thrown a pile of numbers at you, but any clarification could really help put something concrete around the task (I thought it would be simple, but the old adage: "the more you know, the more you know you don't know" seems to have reared a few conundrums!

Many Thanks. Robert

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[limpetmine]

A lot to chew on and study. I've made a stab at this some time ago, making an (unsafe) assumption that production from month to month was steady.
I've seen and have somewhere pictures of some 194X rifles where the last digit is not in the same font as the first three; leading to the assumption that the die was modified, i.e. ground off, so a 1945 die would read 194 and the last digit applied with a single digit die.

Your guess as to the differences in production numbers being the not counting of the No. 4 Mk1's is interesting. The numbers seem to match closely.
As the files were all destroyed, we may never know.

I am woefully behind in logging new numbers into the database. It has gotten pretty large.

[Seaspriter]

Thanks Limpetmine for collecting such a vast amount of data. I think the latest data I have from you is from 2012, which I believe is good enough to make an educated guess. I have a chart from Marshall of the Sept 1943-August 1945 production output for No.4s, which is quite accurate -- it's an actual photo -- you've probably seen it. You are right -- production is never a straight line, for a wide variety of reasons -- but, based on Marshall's chart, it only varied about on the average of 2,000 units a month until the extreme drop-off at the end of the line. The anomalies cited above are the difficult things, but I think I can make some reasonable estimates +/- a month or two. At least we will have a general guide.

[CODFan]

I (and probably many others) am very interested in seeing your estimates.

Thank you.

[Seaspriter]

Mates: I've been crunching and adjusting numbers and working through the many anomalies in the Long Branch data. Below is a listing (+/- one month). Remember, there can easily be several weeks between when a receiver is produced and dated, then the serial number is stamped on the butt socket, and when the gun is assembled, then passes quality control and finally booked as "production." Differences between production rates, receiver dates and serial number is because a dated receiver could sit at the bottom of a bin then taken out a month or two later to be used in production, then be stamped with a serial number on the butt socket. If this occurs in December or January, a receiver with an earlier date can have a serial number issued in the following year. Thus the explanation for the many gaps and anomalies.

I took the production data from the existing chart (see post #3) and extrapolated the missing components.

In this listing, the Serial Number is the best estimate for the ending of the month. I have included notes from the T.H. Marshall report that may help understand the nature of what was happening at the plant.

DATE Serial Number (end of Month)
Sept'41 0L2XX - Startup Month -- Plant designed to produce 25,000 units per month, Savage Plant started production Aug 1941
Oct'41 0L12XX - Skennerton states 7,589 Rifles were produced in 1941 which is probably accurate
Nov'41 0L41XX - Stratton states 1941 production was ~10-15K which probably represents "Work in Process" (i.e. receivers stamped)
Dec'41 0L75XX - Shortage of Barrels, Rear Sights, & Cocking Pieces Prevents Final Production
Jan'42 1L20XX - Many earlier serial numbers have 1942 Barrels - must be considered 1942 production,. Switch over to Mk1*
Feb'42 1L80XX
Mar'42 2L65XX
Apr'42 3L75XX
May'42 5L05XX
June'42 6L90XX
July'42 9L10XX
Aug'42 11L55XX
Sept'42 14L10XX - Long Branch Plant also producing Sten guns
Oct'42 16L75XX - Three Shifts running in 1942-43
Nov'42 19L53XX - Production Costs dropping due to volume and productivity /quality improvements
Dec'42 21L75XX - Total Estimated Production to date: ~ 218,000
Jan'43 25L17XX - Peak Production attained of ~28,500 Rifles per month
Feb'43 27L90XX
Mar'43 30L81XX
Apr'43 33L63XX
May'43 36L45XX
June'43 39L27XX - One source states Serial Numbers on Fore-ends discontinued in Mid '43. (Members please confirm)
July'43 42L09XX
Aug'43 44L91XX
Sept'43 47L66XX - Total Recorded Production of No.4 to date: 477,171; Sten: 71,200
Oct'43 50L76XX - Preproduction of 70 Snipers on 40L-50L receiver bases
Nov'43 54L00XX - Production reduced due to Labour Shortage, first shipment of 250 training rifles, Cancellation of order of 70,000 rifles
Dec'43 57L50XX - Total Recorded Production of No.4 to date: 564,113; Sten: 73,407
Jan'44 59L00XX - Smaller quantity of Sten Carbines produced during this quarter is due to a material shortage
Feb'44 61L10XX
Mar'44 63L40XX - Total Rifle production at the end of this quarter: 633,633; Sten Carbine production: 88,463
Apr'44 65L40XX - Production steady, plant considered to be operating most efficiently. Total Rifle production at the close of the quarter was 700,355. Daily production was approximately 900. Sten Carbine production was also steady, and total production stood at 104,553 at the close of the quarter. Training Rifle production reached 3,071
May'44 67L85XX
June'44 70L25XX
July'44 72L45XX - At request of Department of National Defense, .22 practice rifle, based on conversion of No.4 rifle was designed and developed. Six units of this Rifle were completed and the design approved by National Defense. An order for 7000 was received, with production to start in September at the rate of 1000 per month.
Aug'44 74L35XX
Sept'44 77L00XX
Oct'44 79L00XX - Department of Munitions and Supply reported a cancellation was underway for 50,000 Rifles on Canadian account. Production schedules amended.
Nov'44 81L00XX
Dec'44 83L00XX - Schedules reduced, plant converted from 2 to 1 shift. Total Rifle production at end of 1944: 814,829 Rifles; Training Rifle: 3,974, Production of the .22” caliber rifle: 4,237; during 1944 - 644 Sniper’s Rifles were produced. The production of Sniper’s Rifles depended entirely upon the receipt of telescopes. Sniper’s Rifles chosen from regular production, and are rifles whose performance is above the average.
Jan'45 84L00XX
Feb'45 85L30XX
Mar'45 87L00XX - Cost of the Rifle was under $30.00; and Sten Carbine under $12.50.
Apr'45 88L50XX - During the first quarter of 1945, instructions were received to proceed with the engineering, planning, and tool change necessary to produce the No.5 Rifle at a rate of 8,000 per month. No orders were received for actual production.
May'45 89L00XX
June'45 89L90XX - Production schedules for No.4 Rifle reduced to 14,000 per month, with spares – which quantity would keep all machine lines intact and provide sufficient work-in-process to follow through with the No.5 Rifle when released without loss of time (no No.5 orders were received).
July'45 90L81XX - (Note: many Snipers in this number range are lacking scopes; completed in 1946)
Aug'45 90L83XX - Production on No.4s Rifle stopped as of August 17th, upon receipt of the cancellation of Contract U.N. 8975(70,000 Rifles). All ‘black action’ assemblies as of that date were finished and packed in shipping chests, pending disposition instructions. 9,390 Rifles remained unshipped, and applied against the remainder of this contract.

- Long Branch Production Records states 905,731 No. 4 Rifles Produced as of end of 1945; Sten: 122,689
- 3,100 More Serial Numbers than Production -- probably due to scrapped or rejected by QC
- "Production" refers to product reaching final production & quality standards acceptance (not work in progress)

******************
Long Branch early production had serial numbers affixed to the fore-ends. One plausible (but not confirmed) explanation for this is that the fore-ends, needing close tolerance fitting to the receiver, were fitted to the rifle without breeching a barrel (which was missing). This would enable rapid production reassembly with the right fore-end once the barrels arrived. Once the barrel shortage was over, fore-end serialization would not be needed. One source states that the practice of fore-end serialization ended in mid-1943. Members please check your LB rifles for evidence.
******************
Notes on Sniper's serial numbers -- special exception anomalies
Regarding Sniper's serial numbers, this represents a special anomaly, which is reflected in the reports by T.H. Marshall, Assistant Manager, who states in his 1946 factory close-down report:
"During 1944, - 644 Sniper’s Rifles were produced. The production of Sniper’s Rifles depended entirely upon the receipt of telescopes. Sniper’s Rifles are chosen from regular production, and are rifles whose performance is above the average."

According to Clive Law, because of the shortage of REL scopes, Lyman-Alaska provided 350 in 1944: "The approximate range of serial numbers is believed to be between 4340S and 4690S. The range is based upon observation only as no records have survived. It is the author's belief that these were originally mounted on a block of No.4(T) rifles numbered from 74L0001 to 74L0350."

Continuing with Marshall's report:
"1945: 1st Quarter: 254 Sniper’s Rifles were produced during this quarter, bringing production of this weapon to a total of 898."
"1945: 2nd Quarter: Sniper’s Rifle production fell off to 24 due to not receiving the necessary telescopes."*
"1945: 3rd Quarter: Production for the third quarter on the Sniper’s Rifle was 161, with total production of this item up to 1,083. Production was progressing in a satisfactory manner, compatible with the receipt of telescopes. The cancellation of all contracts, except those for the .22” Rifle and the Sniper’s Rifle, necessitated drastic reductions in staff to the extent that total employees numbered slightly over 200. This personnel was engaged in production, plant cleaning, inventories and preparing capital equipment for storage and disposal."
"1945: 4th Quarter: Production on the Sniper’s Rifle for the fourth quarter amounted to 58, making total production of this weapon of 1,141. As of December 31st, 1945, the following was the status of uncompleted contracts: Sniper’s Rifle – 376; .22”caliber Rifle – 9,338 with 2 months maintenance spares for 10,50; and on that date all operations were transferred from the company to Canadian Arsenals Limited, Small Arms Division, who continued on with uncompleted contracts."

To summarize: Marshall's end of the year Production Report for 1943 mentions nothing about any Snipers being produced**; his first mention of actual "production" of snipers starts in 1944.*** Here are the numbers the Production Department reported:
1944 Total: 644
'45 1st Qtr: 254
'45 2nd Qtr: 24
'45 3rd Qtr: 161
'45 4th Qtr: 58
Allocated to Canadian Arsenal LTD for completion in 1946: 376
Total: 1,517 Snipers Reported Produced

Note*: In other words, it is most likely that a serial number on the butt socket of a Sniper could have been affixed months and months before the Sniper had a long back-ordered scope affixed, calibrated, tested, and released for issuance. In fact, the last 376 in the Sniper contract were actually produced (apparently) in 1946. (This is particularly true if FILO -- First In, Last Out -- inventory was used for work in progress; IOW, a rifle was selected, put on the shelf, then moved to the back of the shelf as the next rifle was selected; thus the first selected was the last in the production sequence.)

Note**: As Marshall's report only covers the end of 1943 to wrap-up of operations, if there is data on 1942 sniper production, it comes from another source. (Marshall also does not state if his title is Assistant General Manager or Assistant Production Manager, although this probably matters not.) Marshall makes no mention of any snipers "produced" in 1943. (It is quite possible that there are receivers marked "1943" that did not receive optics until 1944, and were counted as completed 1944 production.

Note***: Feedback provided by Advisory Panel member "Lee Enfield", with updated information as to quantity manufactured, using data from Clive Law's book regarding snipers:
71 mfg up to Dec 31, 1943
1141 Jan 1 1944 to Dec 31 1945 (Note: Skennerton lists approximately 99 [of 350] No32TPs as being set up during early 1945) 376 mfg by Canadian Arsenals Ltd 1946 (Note: Most or all being C.No.32 Mk3 scopes)
1588 total manufacture
Note: Only 1,524 scopes are recorded as having been produced & purchased by R.E.L. & DND respectively.
Law's conclusions are that the REL No.32 MkI, IA & II scopes are numbered CONSECUTIVELY, while the C.No.67 (No.32 MkIV), C.No.32 Mk3, and No.32TP run in their own sequences. Having said that, MkI, IA & II serials show limited (and unexplained) overlap (probably like a late numbered receiver with earlier features).

Marshall commented on the plant's development of the Sniper, stating:
"The fast changing requirements of modern warfare brought about a request for improved specialized Small Arms weapons. Among such weapons was the No.4Mk.I* (T) Sniper Rifle. A considerably higher standard of performance was required from this rifle then from the ordinary No.4Mk.I* Rifle. By developing closer manufacturing tolerances and by special selection, the company was able to produce rifles that met with Sniper specifications. Special mounting equipments for telescopes were developed and adopted as standard Canadian Sniper equipment."
*****************
Notes on Canadian No.7 .22 Caliber Training Rifle Serial Numbers

The following information is from the Badger/Milsurps Knowledge Library:
Proper serial number rationalization can be broken up into the following years:
1944: 0L1 to 0L7000
1945: 0L6000 to 1L2000
1946: 1L0500 to 2L0000

These are a rough guide only. While they exceed annual production numbers quoted by Skennerton in “The Enfield Story”, they take in to account some observed examples of unaltered factory rifles along with the likelihood that receiver production exceeded annual assembly. Initially the rifles were produced in a batch of 20,000 by SAL (which changed to Canadian Arsenals Limited (CAL) very soon after the war) so serial number rationalization will fall between 0L1 to 0L9999, then 1L0001 to a high of 2L0000. There were also some smaller runs of the Cno7 rifle in the Korean war period. Examples of these observed show the serial numbers to be consecutive with the Cno4mk1* rifles then produced, somewhere in the 9XLXXXX range.
*****************
Miscellaneous Notes by Marshall, who also explained:
"To assist in the job of training new recruits to become soldiers, the company’s engineering staff developed the Long Branch Training rifle, an effective target practice rifle that resembles the service rifles, but is less expensive to manufacture. The purpose of the Training Rifle was to reduce training time, and also the cost of training, by covering a number of steps in the training programme before the final stage of actual experience on the firing range. The shooter’s aim is registered by needles that dart from the muzzle and pierce the paper target held on a stand directly in front of the rifle. Such steps as the correct method of holding the rifle, the correct pressure, trigger pull, were all covered effectively without the expenditures of ammunition and numerous trips to the ranges."

"To complete the necessary equipment for an efficient training programme, the No.4 Rifle was converted to what became known as the Canadian Pattern No.7 .22 calibre Long Branch Rifle. This development enabled actual target shooting without the expenditure of .303 ammunition, and made possible indoor training."

***********************************

I will do the correlations for the 1949-1950 period, but I need the month of start and month of finalization of production for this period to make any reasonable estimates. Can someone give me this info?

***********************************
For anyone interested in doing this for other manufacturers (and for the historical record when someone looks at this 50 years from now), below is a picture of the production curves. This graph is built from any existing data, extrapolation from Lumpetmine's (or anyone else's data base) which references changeover numbers from one year to the next, total serial numbers, and other anomalous data. The trickiest issue is the period from start-up to full production because of the complexities: Engineering, Production, Supply Chain, Quality, Hiring & Training, etc. All this is then fed into a simple computer spreadsheet that projects the "likely" serial numbers. The "likely" serial number is then adjusted by both 1) an approximated 2-3 week lag time between when the receiver date is stamped to the time the rifle passes quality control, and 2) the actual serial numbers in the recorded data-base. This process is both art and science (in other words, it's not a perfect engineering task, and there are lots of erasures on the chart -- that's why it's first done in pencil before converting to computer program).

[Lee Enfield]

I note that you have 90L8 block sniping rifles as being completed in July/ Aug '45. I'm afraid that that is almost certainly incorrect from the DND and Archives research Clive Law conducted for "Without Warning":

You need to throw out all of the "Block" serial numbers for sniping rifles from your listing as they were definitely completed "out of sequence" of standard production.

From Clive Law's book, specific to Canadian sniping rifles:

71 mfg up to Dec 31, 1943
1141 Jan 1 1944 to Dec 31 1945 (Note: Skennerton lists approximately 99 [of 350] No32TPs as being set up during early 1945)
376 mfg by Canadian Arsenals Ltd 1946 (Note: Most or all being C.No.32 Mk3 scopes)

* Note that the Long Branch factory was transferred from Small Arms Limited Dec31, 1945 to Canadian Arsenals Limited Jan 1, 1946 *

1588 total manufacture

Clive Law's Note: Only 1,524 scopes are recorded as having been produced & purchased by R.E.L. & DND respectively.
My Note: the various trials reports referenced in "Without Warning" reference several types of unknown REL & Lyman experimental scopes... and others (at least one Weaver) are they contained within the extra 64 rifle overlap? Add that to the various observed "4 digit" MkII scopes which appear to have been marked with an additional digit to correct a second (or more) scope marked with the same serial number.

Law's conclusions are that the REL No.32 MkI, IA & II scopes are numbered CONSECUTIVELY, while the C.No.67 (No.32 MkIV), C.No.32 Mk3, and No.32TP run in their own sequences. Having said that, MkI, IA & II serials show limited (and unexplained) overlap (probably like a late numbered receiver with earlier features).

[Seaspriter]

Lee Enfield, you are correct, the Snipers present a different situation. They probably require their own database. As T.H. Marshall, Assistant Manager says in his 1946 factory close-down report:
"During 1944, - 644 Sniper’s Rifles were produced. The production of Sniper’s Rifles depended entirely upon the receipt of telescopes. Sniper’s Rifles are chosen from regular production, and are rifles whose performance is above the average."
"1945: 1st Quarter: 254 Sniper’s Rifles were produced during this quarter, bringing production of this weapon to a total of 898."
"1945: 2nd Quarter: Sniper’s Rifle production fell off to 24 due to not receiving the necessary telescopes."
"1945: 3rd Quarter:Production for the third quarter on the Sniper’s Rifle was 161, with total production of this item up to 1,083. Production was progressing in a satisfactory manner, compatible with the receipt of telescopes. The cancellation of all contracts, except those for the .22” Rifle and the Sniper’s Rifle, necessitated drastic reductions in staff to the extent that total employees numbered slightly over 200. This personnel was engaged in production, plant cleaning, inventories and preparing capital equipment for storage and disposal."
"1945: 4th Quarter: Production on the Sniper’s Rifle for the fourth quarter amounted to 58, making total production of this weapon of 1,141. As of December 31st, 1945, the following was the status of uncompleted contracts: Sniper’s Rifle – 376; .22”caliber Rifle – 9,338 with 2 months maintenance spares for 10,50; and on that date all operations were transferred from the company to Canadian Arsenals Limited, Small Arms Division, who continued on with uncompleted contracts."

Given what is said here, because of the back-order delays in receiving scopes, many of the rifles that were selected for Sniper duty laid on the shelf for months and months awaiting final scope affixation and calibration. I have a Sniper with the serial number 71L0279, which would have been serialized about July, 1944, but could have been released for issuance as late as 1946 by Canadian Arsenals, given the scope serial number on the stock.

Let me suggest that someone more knowledgeable than I create a separate monthly approximation of Long Branch Snipers that takes into account all the above noted anomalies.

[limpetmine]

The sniper's list has already been started on this page.

One thing I will add from study of the serial number list is there is quite a few serial numbers that are out of sequence for the serial number XXL block vs the year they are dated. This would tell me that some rifles were held back for one reason or another and then pushed out the following year. This is especially so in 43-44, not so much in 44-45.

Limpetmine

[Seaspriter]

One thing I will add from study of the serial number list is there is quite a few serial numbers that are out of sequence for the serial number XXL block vs the year they are dated. This would tell me that some rifles were held back for one reason or another and then pushed out the following year. This is especially so in 43-44, not so much in 44-45.

Thanks for the Link to the 90L LongBranch Sniper rifles serial/scope list

Here's what I think is the "plausible" (not necessarily true) explanation why so many Snipers serial numbers are out of sequence with the scope numbers:

it is most likely that a serial number on the butt socket could have been affixed months and months before the Sniper had a long back-ordered scope affixed, calibrated, tested, and released for issuance. In fact, the last 376 in the Sniper contract were actually produced (apparently) in 1946. (This is particularly true if FILO -- First In, Last Out -- inventory was used for work in progress; IOW, a rifle was selected, put on the shelf, then moved to the back of the shelf as the next rifle was selected; thus the first selected was the last in the production sequence.)

In other words, the orders for Snipers were quickly filled at Long Branch on the rifle side of production and testing, but not on the optics side (due to the shortage of scopes). Rifles that were first selected were most likely placed on a shelf, and as another rifle was selected, the first one was moved to the back, not to be fitted with a scope until last (First In, Last Out) for that production order. From what we can surmise from Marshall's Quarterly Reports, there were several hundred specially selected rifles sitting on shelves awaiting scopes. When a back-ordered shipment of anxiously awaited scopes finally arrived, someone probably scurried to the shelf, grabbled as many rifles as there were scopes, and got to work with the delicate mounting process, never giving any thought to picking through the pile of rifles to find the earliest serial number in the stack. Thus the hodge-podge of out-of-sequence serial numbers. If the person (60% of the employees were women) took a lot of time pouring through the stack of rifles checking serial numbers, I can only imagine the production manager, who was being screamed at by some Ordnance Official for late delivery, passing the anxiety from HQ on down to a lowly stack picker. (Please someone correct me if you have better info than I on this matter, I'm just reading between the lines of the Production Manager's Quarterly Reports.)

One other area where there can be confusion is in the use of the term: "production."

I note that you have 90L8 block sniping rifles as being completed in July/ Aug '45. I'm afraid that that is almost certainly incorrect from the DND and Archives research Clive Law conducted for "Without Warning":

The term "production" from a manufacturing operations perspective typically refers to the point in time where the final product has passed quality control, meets contract specs, and is cleared for shipment. For the 90L8 block of rifles, the rifles, without scopes, appear to be assembled and tested before the Aug 17th plant shutdown, but were not accepted for issuance because they lacked optics, which meant they did not meet contract specifications. Thus the manager of manufacturing would not count them yet as part of "production," even though they had serial numbers affixed.

[limpetmine]

90L LongBranch Sniper rifles serial/scope list