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    slr history

    Hi guys. This is my 1st post. Ive got a Britishicon SLR and would like to see if theres any way to find out its history by the serial number. the number is :UB61 A128663, also i have Austrailian Defence SLR serial number: AD6220675. any help would be apprecited.
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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

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    Peter Laidler's Avatar
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    In a word, no! Apart from the obvious facts that it was originally made in 1961 by BSA in Birmingham. And the Aust rifle was made in 1962 for the NZicon Army

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    Forget trying to find any history on the Britishicon production rifles.....been there, shouted at that brick wall and got no response, despite looking into various avenues!

    For some reason the info is still shrouded in secrecy, or just plain lost!

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    What makes you think that there will be - or ever WAS - a what we used to call a 'back-records check' record of where your rifle served Mr Clarke? I don't think there was past its initial issue.

    It will have come in to Ordnance as a serial number and stored under a NSN WITH a serial number. It will be issued to another Ordnance depot in, say, Singapore or Viersen or Berlin or wherever and the paper trail is lost once the receipt from the new depot is received and is taken on charge there. Then it's issued to The 1st XYZ regiment at Dusseldorf and taken on charge by the Quartermaster of the 1st XYZ regiment at Dusseldorf. The paper trail at Viersen is then lost once the QM returns the receipt.

    Once the tank or Land Rover or Bedford lorries or Office equipment or Compasses or Wristwatches or night vision equipment is taken on charge at the regiment (the end user) there is no back check. I mean........., just ask yourself........., where would this mountain of paper end up. It wouldn't!

    I have gone into this in greater depth some time ago. It's the same as if you buy an ex army Land Rover. If you have the old registration number such as 36ER24 or 35CL21, you will be told when it was taken on charge and date the vehicle is returned for disposal*, but on the day of disposal, the vehicle history log is lost. (I know the owners of this that and the other tell you this that and the other crap but believe me.........)

    *This is required by law as between those dates the MoD were effectively the registered keeper.

    Nope, there is no paper trail backwards of the end user. If there WAS a backward trace system, tell me this........... Why couldn't they trace the rifles involved in Bloody Sunday. Go on.............. I was involved in the 'no-hope' hunt for them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrclark303 View Post
    Forget trying to find any history on the Britishicon production rifles.....been there, shouted at that brick wall and got no response, despite looking into various avenues!

    For some reason the info is still shrouded in secrecy, or just plain lost!
    Or more likely, not everyone has the American or Germanicon paperwork and record-keeping obsession.

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    Contributing Member mrclark303's Avatar
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    Evening Peter, I was alluding to Factory contracts (Like the readily available Lithgowicon contract info), not their military issue history. BSA and Enfield obviously had the records at one time...

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    Ah, yes...... BSA contract records are now housed at the BHam museum of Science and Technology. But what is slightly interesting is that a BSA rifle with a 6 figure number is/was SAID to be a 5 figure number originally allocated to Fazakerley but with a 1 prefix added so as to clear any ambiguity. My rifle in Malaya was UB58A121xxx (don't ask me how you remember these things.....) and it had a Fazakerley TMH from new.

    So, Fazakerley were originally allocated UF 57A 20000 but didn't make it out of the starting gate so production was transferred to BSA who took over production AND components but started their numbering at UB57(or was it 58?)A - insert a 1 to make it 6 figures, so A110000 and so on. Whatever it was, the early 6 figure numbers were an anomaly of some sort. Don't blame me if this is a load of bollxxxx as it's all from some memory and my rifle that I remember well

    Have you deciphered the L1A1 serial numbering batches KtK

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    The Britishicon L1A1 Serial numbers are a nightmare........... Fazakerley issued numbers are well... somewhere, I know from examining photos or rifles and parts kits that it would appear that Enfield took on Fazakerley's production components as its not uncommon to find F and D marked parts on Enfield assembled rifles. I have a new unfired Enfield (Mk. 2)* L1A1 rifle dated 1961 and it has Fazakerley parts on it.

    When I look at what serial numbers I have the BSA assembled rifles seem to have a nice lineal progression of serial numbers through the years 1957 - 1962.

    But when you hop over to the Enfield serial numbers they are all over the place, there appears to be consistent blocks of serial numbers then there are random ones in years that they shouldn't be in if they were naturally following a sequence.

    Did Enfeild mark the year date according to the Calender year or to the financial year? (I suspect its to the Calender year) if that is so then the numbers are in an even worse order in some years.

    There could be a sequence of 1960 dated serial numbers going along in a nice order and then the next group are dated 1957 or 1958 and then there is a nice group of 1960 dated again. It happens all over the place with Enfield numbers. I think Fazakerley's numbers were sent over to Enfield to use. The info I have is very limited and really could be interpreted in a million different ways the parts eg Bolt and Carrier could be miss-lablled as the the original UB / UE designations, the info people have supplied was miss-read etc.

    One thing I would love to get my hands on the Serial Number ledgers for BSA and Enfield as they would answer a lot of questions........ including the makeup of the British Steel Batch Markings (SBM), I suspect BSA and Enfield would of had similar ledgers to those used by Lithgowicon to record the SBM, proofing, grouping, order number, date of manufacture and who the rifles were purchased by and where the depot/port they were sent to.

    *It was proposed that the new alterations to production brought into service in 1960/61 were to be part of the Mark 2 L1A1 rifle, in effect it should of been the new L1A2 Rifle, part of this program was to incorporate lightweight components, but this never eventuated so the rifle rolled out of the factory with its old designation L1A1. Changes included the a New Butt design, Gas Cylinder/ Carrying Handle Screw, changes to the Firing Pin and Spring, and a myriad of changes to the manufacturing tolerances that had been incorporated since the rifle first went into production in 1957.

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    Re the proposed L1A2 rifle. I can see problems already....... You start production of a 'new' A2 rifle in 1961 or so that incorporates EVERY modification up to that date. Two part firing pin, modified gas cylinder and screw etc etc. So far so good. Just like they did with the L7A1 GPMG which became the production L7A2.

    The problems then start because modifications, by definition, are an ongoing process. After the A2 rifle you'd STILL have fully modified A1 rifles AND there'd be A2 rifles with further, later modifications such as modified locking lever screws and so on and on. JUST like the GPMG's.

    Like GPMG's in service, you still see early 1965 BL made GPMG's, UE L7A1 GPMG's and L7A2 GPMG's and they're all the same, fully modified to current spec and are technically and mechanically pretty well identical EXCEPT that some are marked A1 and some are A2's

    I can see that would have happened to the rifles.

    Just my view there of course.

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    Contributing Member mrclark303's Avatar
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    So chaps ..... can we assume, tucked away in Whitehall or somewhere else, that records exist of BSA/ENFIELD serial number batches provided to Rhodesia and other "friendly" countries??

    Or were these not foreign sale commercial contracts as such, but MOD ordered and diverted rifles, sold on a Government to Government basis?

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