My Carbines, Old and New - with a twist

[imarangemaster]

You all know that I am a huge fan of the M1 Carbine as a defensive weapon. I carried one for much of my LEO career as a trunk weapon, and has been a primary home/farm defensive carbine for me during my LEO career, and the 15 years since I retired. I have killed deer at 100 yards with it, and have no doubt it would do the same to two legged Goblins or Zombie's at that range.

Through the years, though, I have looked for an M1 carbine replacement with more "Pizzazz!" For some reason my 7.62x39 AK and Mid-length AR 5.56 build, just seem to be "too much" for a home defense carbine, and not nearly as handy for a wilderness camping rifle. Nothing seemed as "correct" as the M1 Carbine that I always go back to. I tried Mini-14s and Mini-30s, but until recently, they were not an option. With their whippy thin barrel and dismal (flimsy rear and mile high, unprotected front blade) iron sights, accuracy was not even close to my Inland M1 Carbine.

Then I had a chance to shoot a new Generation 580 series with the heavier stepped/tapered barrel and M1 Carbine style factory sights! OMG! It is like an M1 Carbine with a hard on! Shooting 77 grain MK 262 MOD1 5.56 ammo, it will do at 300 yards was an M1 Carbine will do at 100. I promptly traded in an excess 9mm as a down payment and picked one up a used one at my favorite local gunshop. 2014 Production, 99.9% finish, for $750 out the door.

I still have (Ruger factory and Thermold) "legally possessed by me in California prior to 1-12000" high capacity magazines from my prior Minii-14 forays.


As you can see, the size, handling, and weight are comparable between my Inland M1 Carbine with a 30 rounder in the weapon and two 15s in a stock pouch, and my new Mini with a factory 20 rounder in the weapon, and a single 30 rounder in a stock mag pouch. Even camping out in my mountains, as with the M1 Carbine, if I can't handle the situation with a high cap mag in the weapon, and another 30 rounds in a pouch on the stock, I need prayers more than I need more ammo!



Jeff Cooper, in his 1975 Guns and Ammo Magazine review of the newly introduced Ruger Mini-14 compared it to the M1 Carbine, thinking of it as a logical evolution of the M1 Carbine concept, comparing its handling as identical to the M1 Carbine.

Information

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[imarangemaster]

I also can't help but wonder if the Winchester entry into the 1957 CONRAC Lightweight Rifle Trails (the Winchester .224 Light Rifle) also influenced Bill Ruger's team when they started to design the Min-14 in 1972/1973. The Winchester Light rifle was influenced by Winchester's 1941 M1 Carbine development, and actually represents the Military's natural next logical enhancement of the M1 Carbine, based on traditional weapon ideology. Armalite's next step was so far outside the box of conventional military "wisdom" that it almost never got off the ground.





The proprietary .224 Winchester cartridge was nearly identical to the .222 Remington Special (later renamed .223) used in the AR14 development. The Winchester round shot a 53 grain projectile at 3300 FPS. While the case was almost identical to the 223, it used a shorter bullet with a more rounded ogive, that was seated deeper in the case. Winchester round on the left...



Here are a couple links. The first is to an article on on the Winchester .224 light rifle, and the second is a PDF of the original manual.

Springfield Armory Museum - Collection Record

http://www.replicaplans.com/Firearms...24%20rifle.pdf

[browningautorifle]

I'd like to shoot a few of those older test guns for fun, I'll bet they'd make a sweet sporter...golphers and such...

[imarangemaster]

The proprietary .224 Winchester cartridge was nearly identical to the .222 Remington Special (later renamed .223) used in the AR15 development. The Winchester round shot a 53 grain projectile at 3300 FPS. While the case was almost identical to the 223, it used a shorter bullet with a more rounded ogive, that was seated deeper in the case. Winchester round on the RIGHT...

errata on earlier post

[INLAND44]

That is a very interesting comparison between the M1 carbine and the Ruger Mini-14. As you can imagine, my very next thought was converting a Mini-30 to .30 Carbine! I think I could almost do it myself.

[Sleeplessnashadow]

Yeah, I know, he didn't invent the carbine let alone do it in prison. But I find it somewhat comical that Clarkson typically gets all the credit for the Winchester .224 entry for the light rifle trials that chose the Armalite design.

Being a retired cop I got fed up with all the "Carbine Williams" bravado and decided to make Williams a special needs project to document what his real involvement was in killing the deputy sheriff that landed him in prison, what he really did in prison, and what he really did afterwards.

The research took me to the NC Museum of History, NC State Archives, Fayetteville Court House, the Williams homestead, the MGM Collection by The Academy of Motion Pictures Arts and Science, Special Collections, Margaret Herrick Library, Beverly Hills, ... along with the Cody Museum and their McCracken Research Library in Cody, WY.

When the American Rifleman issue with Canfield's article on the G30 hit the mail boxes, I was literally doing a photo shoot of the G30 and parts at the NC Museum of History.

The end result was a heck of an experience and the six web pages I have on Williams with what I found, including downloads of copies of many of the documents.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Williams.html

Check the 4th page for what he did during his time at Winchester. I was able to shoot a limited number of pics of a few of the prototypes and carbines. Would have liked to have done a photo spread at Cody and the NC Museum of History as it only needs to be done once but they have the rules they do for a very good reason. And their own photographers who are rightfully territorial about their means of income.

My main goal at Cody was to get pics of the carbine prototypes and others concocted by Williams to show people which carbine he did invent. That carbine prototype and the rifle that preceded it were the design Clarkson came up with for the Winchester .224.

The Winchester G30 Rifle

NC Museum of History


Pic I shot with their permission

The Williams .30 Carbine Prototype

McCracken Research Library


On display at Cody Museum, pic I took

A Williams prototype for a .30 Carbine for sporting use

Cody Museum


Pic I took. This one is in their vault and not on display. More pics on the website.
Very educational research project.

And yes, there was ample proof beyond a reasonable doubt and unto a moral certainty Williams was the one who murdered Deputy Alfred Pate of the Cumberland County Sheriff's Office. The hung jury was a sanity trial, not a criminal trial that would have followed. 11-1 for sanity. Retrial on sanity was set to go when Williams wisely took the guilty plea for the jail term instead of going for the death penalty. Check out the documents on my web pages. I was also able to locate a couple family descendants of the deputy and shared what I found with them.

Though you may or may not know me for my websites, I would much rather be doing these kind of research projects and photo shoots. But to not share them would let all the work and history die with me. Which would negate the value of all the work I did.

Jim

[Seaspriter]

I would much rather be doing these kind of research projects and photo shoots. But to not share them would let all the work and history die with me. Which would negate the value of all the work I did.

Thanks so much Jim. Your commitment and standards of excellence are laudable. I appreciate your insights and thoroughness - the mark of a true professional. Historical accuracy is the only way to bust the myths (def: half-truth linked to a half-lie, peddled as the whole truth). Personally I'd love to know more about the pics (above). Sounds like quite a back-story to be told.

Robert

[RichardX]

Sleeplessnashadow thanks for all your detailed research. I was very interested in the back story on David Williams, however when I started to read the information I was stunned to find out that Mr. Williams mother's maiden name was that of my grandmother. When I checked our families records, there it was, Laura Kornegay was his mother and the cousin of Geneva Kornegay, my grandmother.
Also an interesting point, completely off topic for this forum Laura's brother was married to James Williams sister Bessie on the same day Laura and James were married. Perhaps a double barreled shotgun wedding

Thanks,
RichardX

[Sleeplessnashadow]

Robert,

The pictures above were an evolution in designs that are explained chronologically on the page devoted to Williams at Winchester. http://www.uscarbines.com/williams5.html

Below is a Winchester G30 designed by Williams after being given the project started by Jonathan Edmund Browning, half brother of John and Matt Browning. This rifle design was the reason Winchester jumped in on the light rifle competition for what would become the M1 Carbine. This one is on display at the Cody Museum.

Attachment 65517

One design Williams did come up that was used by others (among them, Clarkson) in their two Winchester prototypes that became the M1 Carbine.

Attachment 65516

A carbine part design Williams has never really gotten recognition for...

Attachment 65518

What got me started on Williams as a special project were the stories he told and others edited and printed regarding his involvement in the murder that landed him in prison. I had come across a post written by the deputy's niece as a follow on to his obituary. What she posted motivated me into this project.

I was well aware of the story of Williams in War Baby I. I wanted to present it from the perspective of showing what he really did do. Not to boost the man's image or ruin the man's image, he did that successfully on his own. I wanted to show evidence to document history as it was, not as the myths that are still being told. With evidence that speaks for itself.

Williams was not a man I would have personally cared for. But history is what history was and my personal opinion of the man was/is not something relevant to that history. He was his own worst enemy and paid for it in many ways I chose to leave out as they were also not relevant to this history.

Jim

[imarangemaster]

I want to share some photos of the 224 Winchester that Jim Mock sent me, with his permission. As you will see, the 224 Winchester is basically scaled up version of William's Carbine prototype (different than the one actually used in trials and adopted). Strange that Williams, trying to grab more credit than he deserved for the M1 Carbine, that he didn't claim the 224 Light Rifle, too. It was closer to his Carbine design than any other weapon (except Winchester G30- his design). Jim shares some interest in the .224 Winchester Light Rifle, especially as its foundations with Williams designs. Jim got the pictures at the Cody Museum. Thanks Jim.

As I said, the following are his pictures that I am sharing with his express permission. If you re-post, please give Jim the Photo credits.