My Carbines, Old and New - with a twist

[INLAND44]

Just curious, what did the research on his legal problems have to do with his gun designs? I mean, he materially contributed to the 'light rifle' project and Winchester was not able to destroy his memory despite their best propaganda efforts because people already knew what he did. Americans like an 'under dog' more than anything, especially when he is a somewhat 'shady' and flamboyant character who has been railroaded by a big corporation. 'Carbine' Williams is as much of the mystique of the carbine as Audie Murphy, and a lot more than 'what's his face' at Winchester who tried to diminish William's contributions at every turn.

[imarangemaster]

Williams was instrumental in the Carbines development, but only some of his ideas. Because of personality conflicts (like threatening to shoot co-workers) he worked solo much of the time. Another team developed the carbine delivered for trials. This design had a few Williams features, like the short stroke piston. Williams built a totally different design prototype that was never given to the Military for trials. His prototype had more in common with the .224 light rifle than it did with the Carbine the others designed. He should have gotten more credit for the Light rifle than the carbine.

[Seaspriter]

Americans not only like underdogs, they love the lonesome hero, especially in the inventor role. We idolize John Browning, the Edison of gun design.

(However, it's actually part of the Edison "myth" that he was the sole inventor of over 1000 inventions that were patented under his name. Reality: Edison was a master of running collaborative innovation teams.)

We still refer to "Lee - Enfields" to idolize one of the innovators: James Paris Lee (1831-1904), a (Scottish-born) American arms inventor who designed, among other things, the box magazine that allowed for the development of bolt-action repeating rifles. But all the evolutions of the Enfields were done by teams for the next fifty years.

John Garand was genius inventor, but how many other guns, like the M-1 Carbine were the result of a design team?

Carbine Williams was not a team player, just the opposite. Hollywood loves to create myths, but the realities are that the higher the complexity of a problem, the more collaboration is necessary to solve problems and create integrated solutions. During WWII, when so many new technologies were developed that significantly impacted the outcome of the war, all the major innovations were the result of creative design teams: Sonar, Radar, Proximity Fuse, Analog Gun Fire Computers, fighter planes, tanks, and the list goes on. Even though Kelly Johnson played a key leadership role, it was his Skunk Works team that developed the P-38, SR-71, and many others.

So, as difficult it might be to accept, the lonesome hero inventor is actually an anomaly, one we love to write stories about, but a very scarce reality in today's world of complex technological integration.

[Sleeplessnashadow]

Just curious, what did the research on his legal problems have to do with his gun designs?

The object of my research was separating the legend of "Carbine Williams" from the realities of David Marshal Williams. The firearms he claimed to have designed were but part of the myth. What took the myth to the level of a legend was his "incorrigible youth" that included his trial for murder and time in prison during which he became the gun designer who later "invented" the M1 Carbine. To focus on his involvement with the M1 Carbine alone would not address the authenticity of the legend, what he really did invent and never really got credit for or the man who was David Marshall Williams. His time at Winchester was the highlight of the myth and legend but it wasn't the foundation that made and still makes the legend so appealing.

The myth started when Williams published "The Williams Story" by David Marshall Williams (copyrighted by Williams February 9, 1951 - Copyright AA0000174857) along with the interview he did that resulted in the publication in the Charlotte Observer on February 25, 1951 of "Army Carbine: The Rifle that was Born in Prison" by David Marshall Williams "as told to B. Fay Ridenour". These two documents were found to the be the script on which MGM based the movie. One of the marketing points of the stories and movie that followed were Williams' legal problems. Both stories and later the movie played heavily on Williams wanting his son to know the truth about his father regarding those legal problems and the gun inventions that followed, particularly the M1 Carbine.

To me, whatever personality conflicts Williams experienced at Winchester was more about the predictable personality culture clash of a lone wild wolf from NC being caged with the educated suits and ties from industry and collectively trying to work as a team under pressure, a time limit, with a boss having the qualifications of Pugsley looking over their shoulder. The resulting cat fight was not really relevant to the legend other than to show these individuals couldn't get along, to the point of having to be separated. Regardless of who did what in that cat fight, the end result was Williams made a carbine, the others made a carbine, and the one the others made was chosen by Ordnance as the M1 Carbine. With Williams having contributed to that design with his work on the Winchester Model G30 and the evolution of his short stroke gas piston design.

If you read the pages I authored as a result of the research, the intro page gives a summary of the legend and what was found, indicating not everyone would be interested in the details that followed. But the details that follow present the man and what he did in spite of his shortcomings.

The info on his alcoholism almost killing him, his brother taking legal control of his affairs and the eventual commitment to a hospital I think very relevant for a number of reasons, none involving criticism of the man. One of the reasons was it gives a glimpse of what had been occurring to get him to that point of death without going into details. Another was the book authored by Ross E. Beard Jr, whose time with and interviews of Williams started about the time Williams was deemed mentally incapable of handling his own affairs. Not at all with any intent of discrediting Beard, just to keep what Williams said and did with Beard in it's proper historical perspective.

I could have left out all that Williams did do that was unrelated to the M1 Carbine but I felt it would have presented a very myopic view of the man and his true achievements.

As for the stories of "Winchester" and "what's his face" trying to destroy or mask what Williams did at Winchester, have a look at the number of patents with Williams and Winchester (to include the Winchester Model 50 Shotgun), the letter authored by Puglsey at the request of Olin after the preview of the movie, and see if you can find the source and it's time frame for the stories of Winchester and "what's his face".

Jim

[Seaspriter]

The info on his alcoholism almost killing him, his brother taking legal control of his affairs and the eventual commitment to a hospital I think very relevant for a number of reasons,

Thanks Jim for this illumination. Professionally I help create high performance teams and get them engaged in collaborative innovation. Not everyone is going to be a great collaborative innovator, and it's clear from the history of "Carbine Williams" that he was a very troubled man, regardless of his creative brilliance. It is not unusual for this pattern of behavior to have a basis in a personality disorder. I've encountered it numerous times in my career. While I don't know enough about Williams, and I'm not a psychologist, there are certainly signs of anti-social and narcissistic tendencies that make it easier to invent in isolation, where he is the only one to get the credit; not in a collaborative, team environment where credit is shared. This may also explain why he could invent better in jail -- it gave him the isolation he needed where no one could bother him. Many inventors create their symbolic "man-caves" and become obsessive-compulsive in their single minded focus on perfecting their invention. It often produces extraordinary results.

However, once they come out of their caves with a prototype, so often they have absolutely no clue about the effort and investment costs to test, perfect, engineer for manufacture, quality control, mass produce, procure materials, meet standards, hire and train production workers, set up administrative support, market, distribute, sell, service, promote, warranty the product and pay investors. They think their invention is worth enormous licensing and royalty fees that would deprive any business of profitability. The isolated inventors are very difficult to deal with, no matter how marvelous their invention pitting them at odds with the entrepreneurs and investors that have to take the enormous risk of bringing a new product to market.

In the end, the ones who end up on top are the John Brownings, the Nathaniel Herreschoffs, and the Thomas Edisons who understand the business side of the invention equation. The ones who lose are the Nickola Teslas: extraordinarily brilliant but dying in oblivion or despair.

[Sleeplessnashadow]

The two firearms Williams created that I found most interesting were the modified Remington Model 8 he did while in prison and the Winchester Model G30. I was able to get access to the Remington Model 8 for photos thanks to the exhibit designer in charge of the Williams workshop in the North Carolina Museum of History. This "carbine" was one of my primary targets for examination given the various claims that related this gun to the design of the M1 Carbine. This is the same "carbine" Williams took to Hollywood and Stewart carried in the movie. And the same carbine Williams was filmed explaining it's origins to Stewart as the origin of the M1 Carbine design. Also later filmed with Williams sharing a variation of the story with Ross Beard Jr.

Remington Model 8 in .35 Remington
Attachment 65776

Williams Modified Version, on display in the North Carolina Museum of History.
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The short stroke piston created using the chamber, showing the full rear point of travel vs. the full forward point of travel.....
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With what it looked like from outside the rifle.
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The first Williams patent application for a short stroke "vibrator", application dated February 7, 1931.
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At Winchester, Williams initially modified the Jonathan Edmund Browning rifle design using a gas piston similar to that used by Garand in his Model M1 rifle. His second try he utilized a short stroke gas piston outside and below the chamber. Rifle on display at the Cody Museum, where this pic was taken. Patent drawing from the Williams/Winchester patent. (Note: References to "Winchester" patents includes Winchester under it's various changing names, such as Western Cartridge Co.)
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A Williams redesign produced the Winchester Model 30 7 1/2 lb rifle that convinced Pugsley to contact Ordnance regarding a late entry into the light rifle trials. This rifle is on display at the Cody Museum where this pic was taken. The barrel pictures were a spare barrel for the Winchester Model G30 in the Williams Workshop at the North Carolina Museum of History.
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Winchester's 1st submission to the light rifle trials. Carbine on display at the Cody Museum.
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Winchester's 2nd submission to the light rifle trials and the prototype that won Winchester the contract for the U.S. Caliber .30 Carbine, Model M1. Photos by George Dillman, carbine on display at the Cody Museum.
Attachment 65790 Attachment 65791

The Williams/Winchester patent for the M1 Carbine.
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The carbine invented by Williams, completed after the competition deadline. Carbine on display below the two Winchester prototypes at the Cody Museum where the color pic below was taken.
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The Williams/Winchester patent for the Williams carbine design.
Attachment 65798

The Winchester .224 rifle submitted for the light rifle trials, construction credited to Ralph E. Clarkson. A slightly larger version of the Williams design. On display at the Cody Museum
Attachment 65796 Attachment 65797

Unfortunately we have no color pics of the internal mechanisms of many of these rifles as museum policies understandably prohibit disassembly of their firearms. Which includes removing the action from the stock. B&W photos above were taken by U.S. Army Ordnance at or near the time the rifle was evaluated. We lucked out with the modified Remington Model 8 as the museum curators and exhibit supervisor wanted to document the mechanism.

I did not find a patent for the Winchester .224 rifle but Ordnance pics of it's internal parts are near identical to the Williams carbine. Winchester may have relied on the Williams patent of the carbine he designed.

Jim

The display for the Army Light Rifle Project at The Cody Museum
Attachment 65801

[Seaspriter]

Evolution of the Williams Short Stroke Gas Piston

Great stories Jim. What a journey into the real story behind the scenes. Fascinating and revealing. Quite valuable. I love to learn about the evolution of things -- you've given us some real insights.
Thanks, Robert

[imarangemaster]

As an aside, I took the Ruger Mini up into the National Forest and sighted it in with MK262 Mod1 (loaded with 77 grain Sierra Match-King OTMs). WOW, I love it!... Incredibly light and handy. Quick pointing and fast shooting. Truly an M1 carbine with a "hard on!" That 77 grain 5.56 round will do at 300 yards what an M1 Carbine will do at 100! It really makes me wonder in Winchester won and Armalite lost.. The M1 Carbine may have lived on to serve even longer.

Here's a link to the range report I posted on the Mini Forum on Perfect Union.

Mini range report MK262 Mod1

[browningautorifle]

You can find a few people just frothing at the jaws about how bad the Mini 14 is. I've had a few and never had a problem. I could hit offhand at 200, which is about all I want now days and it never failed me. They handle nice and are light which also now days matters.

[imarangemaster]

Ruger has really created a new paradigm with the Mini-14 and 30s, starting with the late 580 series in about 2007. Ruger made the barrel on these post 2007 Minis heavier on the 223 (same as Mini-30 now), tapered and stepped it. My old Minis I had back in the day (a 180 and a 185 Series) had the thin pencil barrels and the zero wandered and groups opened up as the barrel heated. This 582 does not do that. In fact, I fired 300 rounds, and the groups stayed small (2 MOAish with iron sights) and zero did not wander, even after heating up VERY hot!

The new sights are also awesome, with a sight picture identical to M1 Carbine or M14. Ruger stole the M1 Carbine post and wing front sight (instead of the mile high, unprotected front post that was impossible to make tight groups with). The excellent protected rear ghost ring peep is great, too. While adjustable for zero only, that is sufficient for the 5.56 round. I have it set for a 250 Zero (+ .25" at 25 yards) with the AWESOME MK262 MOD1 77 OTMS. The trajectory is no more than 3.5 high or low out to 300 yards.

I have pre-2000 possessed Ruger factory 20 and 30 round magazines, and my feeding was 100%. Because the Mini is "over gassed" like an AK, it fed and functioned on every load I tried, including some 55 grain IMR4198 loads that would not cycle in my AR.

The weapon was so accurate, so fun to shoot, and so reliable, it passed my Inland as my favorite long gun. I put an M1 Carbine sling on it, and ordered a walnut top handguard to replace the lawyer designed fiberglass monstrosity that Ruger calls a handguard. It will make it look a little more Winchester .224 Light Rifle-ish, or at least more M1 Carbine-ish. Being old, I am still a wood and steel firearms kind of guy!

If you love shooting a carbine, you really should try a newer, heavier tapered barrel 580 series Mini. (Early 580s still had pencil barrels).