Collecting and shooting Milsurps on the cheap

[Eaglelord17]

Well reading another thread, it was pointed out that younger collectors have a hard time getting into collecting at the moment due to cost. The intent of this post is to let people who are interested in getting into collecting (but not limited to), know how to do so for relatively cheap prices as not everyone has 2-4k kicking around to buy a K98k. I will apologize that this list primarily deals with Canada, as that is where I am, and where my experience is so it might not match up with your specific country. A caution this a long read, my intent wasn't to make this long a post, but it just happened that way (more like a article).

To start I am a young collector, and I was fortunate enough to have a well paying job for a while which let me experiment and discover what I liked and didn't like. Unfortunately for me that cost a fair bit of coin to gain this knowledge. I have been collecting for 5 years at this point and it is a blast, but since I am now attending college, I have been forced to be much more careful with my money and how I spend it.

For most new shooters, the two biggest costs are the rifle, and the ammo for the rifle. Many don't realize that just because a gun costs 300$ doesn't mean that you can find ammo for that gun (Carcanos, Lebel-Berthiers etc.). A excellent way to start collecting at the moment is to acquire Soviet surplus firearms, which at the moment are common on the market. For me I started with a SKS quickly followed by a Mosin Nagant 91/30. The greatest advantage these rifles have is the cost and availability of ammo, at the moment in Canada 7.62x54r costs 250$ for 1000 (plus taxes) and about the same for 1200-1440rds of 7.62x39.

Now Soviet firearms are interesting but not everyone wants to collect them, which is 100% understandable everyone has there interests, and they definitely aren't the most 'refined' rifles. The premise of this post however is based on the availability of 7.62x54r and 7.62x39.

One of the things you must know about 7.62x54r and 7.62x39 is that they are both approximately .310-.312 diameter bullets, or actually 7.7 diameter bullets (not a true 7.62 which is a .308 diameter bullet). This means that these bullets are too big for a .30 caliber rifle (30-06, 7.62x51 etc.), but are suitable for many different milsurp rifles.

With these two cases you can make up some very accurate rounds for cheap for the following calibers, .303 British, 7.7x58 Japanese, and 7.65x53 Mauser. There maybe more calibers, but these are just the ones I will touch on.

To make this ammo for cheap you must buy a reloading kit, and the dies and shell holders for the proper caliber, the brass for the caliber, and primers, along with a bullet puller. This will likely run you somewhere in the 300-600$ range. However by doing this you will save yourself a significant amount of money in the long run (this set up will pay itself off in about 555rds, after that it is pure savings) and often make better quality ammo than the factory ammo.

To make this ammo, you must pull the 7.62x54r or the 7.62x39. You prime and size your brass of chosen caliber (.303, 7.7 Jap, 7.65x53 Mauser), and then if using the 7.62x39 do a straight case dump (when I pulled the 7.62x39 it was approximately 24grns for the batch I was dealing with so that is what I set my powder measure to) and seat the 7.62x39 bullet, this makes a decent plinking round with no kick for 100m. If your pulling the 7.62x54r reduce the powder by 15-25% depending on the case (for my .303 I tend to go to about 37grns when the pulled ammo holds 44grns which is about a 17% drop in powder charge). You then just seat the bullet at the proper length. Doing this costs about 38cents a shot for pulled 7.62x54r and about 27cents a shot for pulled 7.62x39. Considering for most these calibers factory ammo costs at least 1.25$ (7.7 Jap tends to cost 2.50$ a shot!) you will save money very quickly.

The other major advantage is the pulled bullets are flat based so they perform exceptionally well in these rifles (approximately 150grns for the pulled 7.62x54r bullets and 120grns for the pulled 7.62x39 bullets). For my P14 in .303 British I can likely shoot about a inch group with the pulled 7.62x54r vs the 3 inches with the factory boat-tail ammo.

Now to get to the rifles. I will recommend the rifles based on price and caliber.

For .303 British, my number one recommendation is a P14. These are very interesting rifles which have neat history and have excellent iron sights (a very effective aperture sight). They also have the advantage of having a regular chamber which leads to longer brass life which keeps shooting costs down. In Canada these rifles can be found in the 300-500$ range, just this year I acquired my personal rifle with a mint bore and original volley sights for 350$. Other rifles in this caliber which would be good to look at are

• a sporterized Ross which has a good chamber (not enlarged) that would be around 200-400$. The main reason I put this on the list is because of the fact it has a 'normal chamber' instead of a Enfield style chamber.
• a No. 4 Mk. 1(*, or Mk. 2) Lee Enfield which currently runs about 350-650$ these have 'Enfield' chambers which is very hard on brass if you full length resize. There are many tricks used to reload for these specific rifles to increase brass life, but overall your brass won't last as long as a P14 or a Ross (provided the Rosses chamber hasn't been enlarged).
• No. 1 Mk. 3* Lee Enfield, approximately 350-550$ see the note above about the Enfield chamber.

There are of course more .303 British rifles out there but I am just focusing on ones that are cheaper to acquire.

For 7.7x58 Japanese there is only one option, the Arisaka Type 99. These rifles have tons of history and several main variations. The largest advantage these rifles have is the bores are all pretty much VG+ as all but the 'last ditch' variants have chromelined bores, which protected them over the years (along with the fact ammo was all but impossible to find until recently). One of these will run you anywhere from 350$-1000$. Biggest issue in Canada is these aren't that available as not nearly as many came into Canada as did the States.

And finally for 7.65x53 my number one recommendation is a Argentine M1909 Mauser. Based on the M98 action, it is very strong. They were also very well made firearms. These can be found in poor shape to EXC+ condition. At the moment one of these rifles will run you about 350-1000$ in Canada, shooter grade likely about 450-500$. Other options for the 7.65x53 is

• 1891 Argentine Mauser, approximately 550-750$
• Peruvian Mausers (basically the same as the Argentine variants, should be about similar prices)
• Belgium Mausers (1889, etc.) these are very uncommon/rare and price wise they are all over the map
• Turkish Mausers pre-1930 (approximately) which haven't been converted to 8mm Mauser. Very rare and likely expensive but you never know what you will run into, sometimes for very cheap.

This about sums it up. These calibers can be made for cheap, and it gives you a variety of options for action types. I wish it to be noted that the three top choices (i.e. number one pick for each caliber) are very strong actions, that do have a fair bit of room for safety (all of those actions the P14, Type 99, and M98 Mauser, can and have been used to make magnum caliber chambered rifles). Do your research before reloading with surplus ammo (or any reloading for that matter), sometimes you don't get the chance to make the same mistake twice. Have fun collecting and shooting, as if you aren't having fun you need a new hobby.

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[Colonel Enfield]

Thanks for the taking the time to put all that information together, Eaglelord - very kind of you!

I agree with you about Soviet rifles being a great starting point for new MilSurp shooters - the guns are solidly built, accurate, and even in this part of the world you can get a really nice one and still see useful change out of $500.

It'll interesting to note the differences in availability of military surplus rifles and ammunition in different areas, too.

I don't want to hijack your excellent thread so early in the proceedings, but personally, I'd advise a new shooter to stay away from "Weird"* calibres like 7.7mm Arisaka, or 7.65mm Mauser.

I've always suggested people go with .303, 6.5x55 Swedish, 7.62x51/308, or 7.62x54R calibre guns until they're more established in the pursuit. Because those are the most common Service Rifle calibres, they're the ones where there's the most expertise available for (ie other people who load the cartridges, have guns chambered in them, etc) - things which are important to a new shooter.

*"Weird" being any calibre you can't generally readily obtain from pretty much any gunshop.

[CINDERS]

The hardest part of getting a milsurps is finding a really good shooter and know what your looking at, as I have said previously whilst a pretty stock is nice its the workings of the weapon that are of prime importance as I have seen real dogged out stocks on Mk III's and 4's but they could really group because the owners took the time to look beneath the skin. And this is where as experienced members of a club help the tyro's of the world get into the sport with a rifle that will give them the results down the range and not a Ferrari with a VW motor under the bonnet.
Nothing more will kill off a persons enthusiasm than a rifle that groups in the meters, and in my meager 42 years shooting and hunting I have seen some unscrupulous people rip new members off because they needed to clear a spot in their collection of a clunker. I have witnessed these young people with the passion get back at 600m and just throw money down the range and hit nothing because they believed the sales pitch "Oh yeah she shoots real dandy like".
I do not know what Dandy shoots like as I need a practical demonstration by the owner and myself shooting the rifle it works, looks are secondary, time and patience are needed to encourage the young shooters to utilize the knowledge base in a club that way they will not become digruntled members and leave because they blame themselves for missing due to poor technique rather than the rifle being useless or shot out.

[Eaglelord17]

I don't want to hijack your excellent thread so early in the proceedings, but personally, I'd advise a new shooter to stay away from "Weird"* calibres like 7.7mm Arisaka, or 7.65mm Mauser.

I've always suggested people go with .303, 6.5x55 Swedish, 7.62x51/308, or 7.62x54R calibre guns until they're more established in the pursuit. Because those are the most common Service Rifle calibres, they're the ones where there's the most expertise available for (ie other people who load the cartridges, have guns chambered in them, etc) - things which are important to a new shooter.

*"Weird" being any calibre you can't generally readily obtain from pretty much any gunshop.

I 100% understand what you are saying in regards to common calibers, but the advantage of the 7.7x58 and the 7.65x53 is that once you have the brass and dies it is no harder to reload than a standard 7.62x51 and 7.62x63 (30-06). It is even easier to reload than the .303 British. It also gives some variety in options for actions (M91 Mauser actions, M98 Mauser actions, Type 99 action etc.) so it gives a bit more variety than just using a Mosin Nagant (not a bad thing, but personally I like to shoot at least two different rifles at the range per day I shoot).

Right now in Canada, both those types of brass are available for the same price as any other full rifle caliber (70-80$ for 100 pieces), which if you get 10 reloads out of each piece comes to about 7-8cents a shot.

The biggest goal of this article is to let people know how to shoot these rifles cheaply. If your shooting 6.5x55 in Canada your looking at 1.25$ a round at the moment, and even if you reload it is only slightly cheaper (100 bullets costing 40$, this applies to virtually every caliber except .223 and .308). Besides at about 27-38cents a shot, your shooting centerfire for cheaper than virtually anyone else (except maybe some cast lead shooters), and most definitely are shooting jacketed bullets for cheaper than anyone else, unless they are using this technique. It is actually cheaper make and fire the whole round than it is to just buy the bullet itself. You will pay for your reloading gear in 555rds of .303 British or 218rds of 7.7 Japanese (just looking at if your buying factory ammo).

Personally the first caliber I ever reloaded for was a 7.7x58 Japanese, and other than one mistake that required me to dump and deprime 50 cases (seated the primers too deep accidentally on my first try) I have never had a issue.

Unfortunately I only have a 100m range to play around with in my area, so I haven't been able to stretch it out farther, but they preform excellently in this area (better than I can) so there is no reason I can see it won't do good at longer ranges (certainly grouping better than the factory ammo I have used).

[Colonel Enfield]

I think this discussion perfectly demonstrates the difference between countries regarding ammunition/gun availability

Ammo in Australia costs a fortune. Factory, reloading components, doesn't matter, it still costs the sort of money that would make our friends in the US keel over with an attack of the vapours.

My observation is centrefire ammo for the "mainstream" calibres I mentioned earlier is about $1.50/rnd, with deals available from time to time when someone imports a container-load of a specific calibre (or range thereof).

While I appreciate where you're coming from with regards to ease of reloading for some of the odd cartridges, in this part of the world the guns themselves are so uncommonly encountered as to make it a moot point. For example, I don't think I've ever even seen a rifle chambered for 7.65x53mm Mauser, except for a scant handful of Turkish Mauser rifles on display in museums, captured during the Gallipoli Campaign.

Back in the '80s and '90s someone imported vast quantities of Swedish Mausers into Australia - so many they're easily the second most commonly encountered Milsurp rifle here after the various .303s. Something similar is happening at the moment with the Swiss Schmidt-Rubin rifles; someone has imported a heap of them, they're on the market for reasonable prices, and they've suddenly become very popular whereas perhaps five years ago only serious military rifle enthusiasts would have even heard of them, much less own one.

I know there's a few Carcanos floating around for next to nothing at the moment; a friend grabbed one a year or two back for that reason but discovered the ammo and reloading components were so hard to get in his area that he's now stuck with a spectacularly average rifle that's a huge pain in the neck to feed, not cheap to run, and not especially accurate either.

I must stress that all this doesn't make your advice bad in any way - just illustrates the different experiences people are going to have in different areas.

[Eaglelord17]

That is very interesting the differences your region can make.

In Canada .303s of many makes and varieties (though many of them sporterized) are the most common milsurps but are less and less common at the range due to the increase of cost for .303 British. Mosin Nagants and SKSs would be the most likely thing to see at the range at this point for military surplus, which is good but many people are missing on quite a fair bit of variety. There are a bunch of 8mm Mauser rifles and 6.5 Swedish rifles kicking around but again due to increase in ammo costs you see them less and less. The Swiss rifles seem to have increased in popularity here as well, but so has the price, which again makes it harder for people to get into it.

Often where I live (which is primarily a hunting town), I am the one with the diversity in milsurps/any milsurps at the range (many in this region see no need for them and would prefer the newest cheapest hunting rifle in some 'magnum' caliber).

The most interesting thing to me is ammo prices have jumped significantly recently. Two years ago I could buy new production (PPU) ammo for most milsurps for 20$ a box. Now those same boxes sell for 25$+ a box. No difference in ammo quality but a 25% minimum jump in price. Even .22 ammo is getting unaffordable, in my city 2 years ago it was 20$ a box of 500, now it is 40$ a box of 500 (which I refuse to pay). Most new people don't realize most the cost is in buying the ammo for the rifle, not just acquiring the rifle itself, and with the way the factory ammo is going, it is getting very unaffordable for all.

[Aragorn243]

In my area, Pennsylvania, eastern half, there are a few bargains to be had. Usually at flea markets or private sales. Auctions tend to be high, dealers tend to be high if they ever get any in which isn't often anymore. Best bargain at the moment seems to be Turkish Mausers. Still selling for less than $200 around here and generally in pretty good condition. Nagants are bringing more. Czech and Yugo Mausers are in the $200-$300 range. Nagants in the low $200's maybe high $100's. Best ammo deal is probably Swiss with Soviet calibers right in there.

[henry r]

the other milsurp that is common and cheap where i am is the .310 martini cadet. every gunshop that carries second hand rifles in my region has at least one still in original form.

brass isn't stupidly priced (all ammunition is comparatively expensive in Australia), with cast bullets i think it would be fairly cheap to reload.

i loved using a martini action when i last tried it, i like the way they look, but i have no idea what i'd use a .310 cadet for personally.

[CINDERS]

I agree with CE in our region it is just expensive to shoot a 4 kilo of 06H just set me back $400.00 so 08 would be the same plus I think 1000/174SMK's set me back $650.00 Remington 303 brass is non existent in Australia now and my local has Hornady stuff at $75.00/50 so I am glad I hedged 2 Rem packets last year. The state I am in is governed by what ever the Eastern states gets because that is where the stuff is landed, at one point the S.A govt would not let the trucks carrying the powder through the state so the powder was coming via the Northern Territory after going through Queensland with the additional freight cost absorbed by the consumer.
I hope things improve in the supply of components for us here in W.A, as for the Swedes they have faded the K-31 were a fad they have dried up a bit as the guys were having to buy the mags as the cardboard stripper clips are collectible now price a K-31 mag in Australia I think they are about $150-$160/Au/ea

It has taken me 30 years to accumulate a meagre reloading set up of reasonable quality gear as I have done my apprenticeship on single stage presses ect and weighing each charge direct from the can now it is easier with the DPM 1300 but you still have to weigh each final charge. For the tyro it gets daunting and frustrating but thats where the older members help so A) They do not blow themselves up B) Get the reward of better results for their toils. You can get a reasonable No.4 for $500-600 Savage usually Faz and LB for some reason demand a bit more, Mk IIIs the same because we are aiming at entry level shooters obtaining a reasonable rifle.

A question I have for the wise ones persons are advertising in the grease 4's for $2,650.oo/Au if they have been in the grease that long then the stocks I gather would be immune from warping and drying right out as the cosmoline seals it all up. As to pay that money for a NOS rifle and find a warped stock would be really rotten whats the guff fellows....

[Eaglelord17]

Wow CINDERS seeing those numbers is making me cringe.

I have noticed that thanks to being able to buy firearms over the internet it has really helped even out the prices a bit over Canada. Unfortunately what this means is that everything is more expensive. In regards to Canada vs US for prices, I find most milsurps excluding the Soviet stuff tends to be cheaper in the US. Everything just seems to be a bit cheaper, except oddly enough ammo at the moment.

It would be interesting if someone did a cost comparison between countries for shooters. I imagine the UK likely has the highest rates (low number of firearms owners coupled with limited buying ability so much less bulk buys by the stores), Australia and New Zealand being somewhere in the middle and Canada and the US likely being at the bottom.