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  1. #1
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    Off the side a bit but..........

    Anyone out there in Forumland had any experience with this newish 'waterless' engine coolant? Thinking of putting it into my 1969 and 2001 Mini Coopers. I can see all the good things about it but what are the drawbacks? Pressures?
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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

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    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
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    Peter I found this thread ~
    Matt
    I've reposted this thread on waterless coolant because the original was deleted. Matt, your post came up first. I hope you don't mind that it looks like you started this thread, but I'm interested in knowing more about it. If you object, I will just start a whole new thread, but I didn't want to see some of this information go to waste.
    West
    Matt's initial post:
    I did a lot of reading about the waterless coolants and am interested in using it myself. I think it's ideal for our cars that are stored for long periods.

    From what I've read, the engines may run warmer ... but the stuff doesn't boil over... I read all the theory on the stuff, and it does say that while the overall temperature may go up, the actual amount of cooling being done to vital parts is greater. Basically, more heat is being transferred to the coolant than we're used to, therefore, it gets hotter. But since it has the capacity to hold that heat without boiling, there isn't a problem.

    The temperatures we see with water/anti-freeze are the coolant temperature, and from the physics of the coolant itself, it seems that the waterless has more surface area contact with the hot metal, therefore it will absorb more heat, which is reflected in slightly higher operating temperatures. But does this count as overheating? I don't know, but I don't think so. We need to examine what we're worried about--an arbitrary number on a gauge or the actual boiling of the coolant where it has lost its ability to absorb any more heat and the efficiency of the system is reduced? If the coolant isn't boiling, it can continue to absorb heat until the radiator can no longer reject it, and even on old cars, the radiators can remove A LOT of heat. The point that the waterless coolant guys are making is that the margin between operating temperature and failure with water/anti-freeze is very slim, on the order of 15-20 degrees. That's not much of a cushion. The waterless stuff continues to work at 350 degrees, probably 100 degrees hotter than any car can possible make the coolant. So we need to look at how we define overheating in our cars and why it is or isn't dangerous. As far as physics goes, no boiling = working as intended, even at slightly elevated temperatures.

    There isn't a specific temperature at which the metal parts in our engines will fail, at least, it isn't in the 200-240 degree range. The temperatures we fear seeing on our gauges and in theory are strictly a result of water's boiling point, nothing else. The engine will probably run happily at hotter temperatures and may in fact run better. The only issues might be vapor lock, but I suspect that the actual temperature of the working parts is close to the same, if not lower, with the waterless coolant.

    Gil, what aluminum bits gave you that blister? Even at 130 degrees, metal will damage flesh, so I don't know that this was a result of the coolant--it probably would have been that hot no matter what, yes? And you also switched to a vastly more efficient radiator--that's far more likely than the coolant as credit for your cooling system's improved efficiency (or previous lack thereof).

    I have no dog in this fight, but I would consider using the stuff if it works as advertised. The theory seems sound. I'm just wondering if we're used to seeing one number on the gauge and call anything above that "overheating." I guess it depends on how we define "overheating" (which I take to mean boiling). We all like to see nice cool numbers on the temperature gauge, but why? Because it gives us more room and we don't need to worry about overheating, right? It's not the actual temperature of the engine we're worried about, it's the boiling point of the coolant and knowing that it becomes a major PITA at that point. Think about it.

    The waterless stuff boils at 368 degrees--there's just no way a Silver Ghost can get coolant that hot unless something is seriously amiss somewhere else--even oil starts to fail at around 270 degrees. I don't know that I would blame the coolant for that, but then again, I wasn't there so who knows?
    Anecdotal stories about "it seemed hotter" aside, does anyone have direct experience? I'm very interested, but it seems most of our hobby-side stories are rumors and "I knew a guy who..." kinds of things and warnings about dire consequences. Like I said, the theory is sound, the math works, but everyone seems scared of it the same way we were afraid of taking the lead out of the gas...

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    Contributing Member Gil Boyd's Avatar
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    Lots of Gil's about, not me though. Got rid of my Cooper S donkeys years ago when I got into long pants and my legs grew longer. Then some clever dicky came up with seat extenders
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    Legacy Member Vincent's Avatar
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    Your engine is probably designed to run around 212°F (100°C) with 50/50 ethylene glycol antifreeze.

    Conventional petroleum motor oils start to break down around 240°F (115°C).

    The engine is going to run hotter with a waterless coolant and the margin between the engine’s normal operating temperature and the break down point of the oil will be reduced.

    The boiling point of waterless coolant is above 375°F (190°C), well above the temperature where conventional petroleum motor oils break down.

    So……. if you’re going to switch to a waterless coolant, it’s a good idea to use synthetic oil (if you’re not using one already). Most are good for temperatures up to around 400°F (204°C).

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    Thread Starter
    Seems like it's worth a try chaps. Thanks for that info and points of view. PLEASE feel free to add anything for or against.

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    Legacy Member Vincent's Avatar
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    In the against column there are some points here - No-Rosion Products Technical Questions and Answers It’s slanted, but there are still some valid points.

    Another option to consider is OAT (Organic Acid Technology). How Does Organic Acid Technology Engine Coolant Work? | VR-12 | Ultimate cooling system protection.

    My wife’s previous car had 286,000 miles on it when we traded it in. The OAT coolant was never changed, only refreshed once.

    A problem with OAT’s is they are not compatible with some gasket materials. There are charts that tell you if your engine’s gaskets will not get eaten by the acid.

    Going back to the oil again. One thing to remember,,, for every 10°C (18°F) increase in operating temperature the life of the oil is cut in half. That’s the same for conventional petroleum and synthetic oils. Conventional petroleum oils are being extended to 5,000 mile change intervals now. A 10°C increase would cut that to 2,500 miles. A 15,000 mile synthetic goes down to 7,500 miles with a 10°C increase. The main factor causing this reduction is increased oxidation.

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  12. #7
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    Thanks chaps...... Generator running problem cured by stripping and cleaning through the 2 stroke gummed up carburettor with trichlorethylene an air line and piece of .010" wire!

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    The only draw back I can see if there was a loss of coolant or another problem there would be no indication of boiling like a conventional system ( signs of steam) your temp gauge may be off the clock but underneath things may look normal due to its high boiling point.

    If your waters getting cloudy Peter I,d see a Doctor, if its the Mini's I,d flush the system with a coolant flush, for summer months I,d use a corrosion inhibitor (oxygen scavenger) then flush again and add the anti freeze ready for winter. I don't think the corrosion inhibitors can work with Glycol (anti freeze)

    It also depends on the use, if its limited use and mainly storage, then can't see a problem with the waterless but I,d be asking the classic car owners etc on there views.

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