Powder Ignition Failure

[bombdoc]

Folks, I have been encountering a number of failures of Vithavouri N140 powder to ignite.

I am aware of a number of incidents where this has happened with several 7.62x54R rifles and more recently with an 8mm Lebel.

The cases are normal ball loadings with a standard primer. What happens is that the primer fires, but the powder does not ignite. The bullet is driven into the rifling and the powder is left in a caked lump in the chamber and case. The powder which is normally grey takes on a yellow colour.

I have tried changing the powder and primer batches, but I keep getting incidents of this failure.

The Lebel I have has a fairly worn bore and the dies and bullet I am using (.323 mauser) is not a tight fit in the case. I am beginning to suspect that the primer is just blowing the bullet and powder down into the bore before it ignites..

Any thoughts...?

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[browningautorifle]

There's not enough heat to light the powder. You need to at least use a magnum primer and this should light it. Also, I've had this problem with ball powder and just changed toi an extruded such as 3031 IMR or 4064 IMR...the problem ended. Ball seems a bit harder to light.

Also, wondering how much you use? Ball powders won't always work with reduced loads. Here's a manual for that...

7,62 x 53R (7,62 Russian) - Rifle reloading - Reloading Data - Vihtavuori

[CINDERS]

fairly worn bore and the dies and bullet I am using (.323 mauser) is not a tight fit in the case

What dies are you using as it sounds like the neck tension is all wrong and I usually well always crimp my 303 rounds, have you contacted VV with the batch number of your powder, also with a Magnum primer it equates to about a grain of powder so adjust your loadings I run Fed - 215M in my 6.5/284 and have adjusted the loadings down a grain, and I use Fed Gold Match - 210's in my 308's and 303's interesting thing I will keep on this thread as I use VV in my 6.5 (N-165) and have not had any issues

[bob q]

Some powders will do this in military rifles . It is caused by several factors , the more of the factors you have , the more likely it is to happen . 1. A bullet too small for the bore , 2. an oversized chamber for the case being used [ or the case is too small ] , 3. too much neck clearance in the chamber , 4. cooler weather , 5. the powder used [ I-3031 is one of the worst ] , 6. too light of a charge . You probably have all of those listed . It is NOT the primer or crimp.

[CINDERS]

In the few 0000's rounds I have reloaded I have never heard of different powders producing that type of ignition problem, also if you are using lee collet dies which I have used and you do not set them up correctly they will not get the tension on the neck and the projie will drop into the case how do I know this because I did not set them up properly and the projie promptly fell into the case with the powder, the .323 is the correct size for the Lebel 1886. Even if there is insufficent obturation with a worn bore the powder should still ignite. The only rounds I have that have failed and that is 3 of them are the ones I forgot to put powder in by not visualizing and being distracted (6.5/284). Have any of you military experienced personnel suffered this type of fate with any reloading you have done ending up with a blocked bore and grey/yellow gunk in the chamber as it is a newie to me and I have loaded allot of 303 rounds with 4 different powders over the years and suffered none of that maybe its a French thing.
I mean there are so many variable reloading practices, powder storage and handling for a start anyway we will see what the wise ones come up with.........

[browningautorifle]

5. the powder used [ I-3031 is one of the worst

You didn't read what he wrote did you?

[Bruce McAskill]

Jim is correct. Your primers are not hot enough for the ball powder to be shattered and ignited by the primer blast. That is why the yellow lumps of unburnt powder. Ball powders are well known for needing the extra brisance of a magnum primer. The extruded powders do not need the magnum primer is standard rifle cartridge loadings but would be needed if the round is considered to be in the magnum category. If you have tried a good magnum primer and this still happens then you have other problems that you will have to address.

[Parashooter]

O.P. says he's using VV N140. I believe that's an extruded powder. VV's website says "All Vihtavuori powders for small arms are extruded propellants."

I have very occasionally experienced a similar result with low-end charges of medium-burning IMR powder in relatively large-capacity cases, including 8mm Lebel. Normally the cure is to use a safely heavier charge or, when the objective is reduced velocity, an appropriate charge of faster powder.

[browningautorifle]

Here's the pic of the powder in question, not as extruded as the IMRs I'd use in that cartridge.

I still think a magnum primer will solve this.

Attachment 66141

[bombdoc]

Thanks for the replies chaps..

To cover the main points raised:

1. This has occurred with a number of batches of N140.
2. Primers are standard CCI large rifle...
3. N140 is a chopped extruded powder, not ball!
4. I have two sets of 8x50R Lebel dies, CH4D and Lee. Cases are Privi - both dies seem to resize to the same (loose) diameter!
5 I am loading 42gn which is a lightish load, but I would not have thought excessive. The case is pretty full!

I have loaded literally thousands of .303 with similar loadings and never had a problem..

I am no stranger to ammunition design, but this one has me pretty stumped! I would not have thought you could blow a bullet out of a case and not achieve ignition.. but there you go ammunition - 90% science 10% woo woo!

I think my next move is to make an S Die for 8x50R and see what the effect of changing neck tension is! I'm pretty sure this is the cause! What I don't understand is why both Lee and CH4D make dies that don't seem to size for .323 bullets!