Dad's Army P14s

[Flying10uk]

I'm curious to know if the P14s which the Home Guard used in WW2 came from U.K. military storage or if they came with the P17s from the U.S.A.. If they came from the states what was the reason for this, please? Perhaps during WW1 the U.K. only had them on loan??? Thanks for any info.

Information

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[Peter Laidler]

Certainly huge batches of the P'14's were already here because the chests were earmarked for conversion into the No4T chests. Alas they were unsuitable. But it shows that the chests and presumably rifles were already here, stashed away at Weedon and Didcot

[Aragorn243]

The P-14's were to the best of my knowledge purchased directly from the manufacturers, not the US government. So they were owned by the UK, not on loan. They were contracted out to the US because of the war preventing UK factories from making the switch to the P-13. US factories were not gearing up for war so they were available. Fortunate for the US because when we did finally enter the conflict we had three factories capable of pushing out a lot of rifles very quickly with a slight modifications to 30-06 and the 1917 rifle. The 1917 rifles sent during WWII were lend lease.

[Beerhunter]

I'm curious to know if the P14s which the Home Guard used in WW2 came from U.K. military storage or if they came with the P17s from the U.S.A.. If they came from the states what was the reason for this, please? Perhaps during WW1 the U.K. only had them on loan??? Thanks for any info.

I think that we need to get this straight.

As has been said the Great War P14s contracts were let by the British Government to the three factories and were bought and pid for. There was no reason that ANY were left in the US at the cessation of those contracts. So the P14s came out of British war stores.

As to the M1917s (not P17) they were bought from the US Government in two batches. By far the the largest in 1940 and a (much) smaller batch in 1941. Both batches pre-date the 1941 Lenn Lease Act and therefore they were also bought an paid for!

Put another way, neither case was involved any largess on the part of the US Government.

[Flying10uk]

I seem to recall hearing or seeing somewhere that Enfield originally intended to design a new rimless cartridge for the P14 but WW1 got in the way of this and so went with the rimmed .303 round instead and this also meant that the P14 was ideally suited for the U.S. .300 when the rifle was developed into the P17???

[Seaspriter]

went with the rimmed .303 round instead and this also meant that the P14 was ideally suited for the U.S. .300 when the rifle was developed into the P17???

The history is quite fascinating. Prior to WWI the Ministry of Defense determined the venerable Mk III SMLE was outdated and a more advanced rifle was in order. They took queues from 1898 Mauser and the U.S. M1903 Springfield, plus some other advancements to create the new Pattern 13, which was going to be chambered as a high velocity .276 Enfield.

When WWI broke out suddenly, considering the existing stock of weapons inventory plus manufacturing machinery and tooling for the SMLE and .303 ammo, the British decided it was a poor time to change ammunition and change over production -- which could take a year. The P-13 was dropped, and the design reconfigured for .303 ammo, naming the rifle the Pattern 1914 or P-14.

The size of the .276 Enfield cartridge was similar to the .303, except for the bullet, so the magazine could be used and the barrel bored to .303 -- a relatively easy adaptation.

Getting new production on line fast was essential, thus two US contactors -- Winchester and Remington were given contracts, which built the P-14s in New Haven CT, Ilion, NY, and Eddystone, PA, producing 1,117,850 rifles.

As the contracts were being completed in 1917, the US declared war, but there was a severe shortage of Springfield produced M1903 rifles chambered in 30-'06. U.S. Army Ordnance did not want to have a mixture of ammo, but fortunately the tooling to convert a P-14 to use the U.S. .30-'06 ammunition was easy as the chamber was not much different. The "American Enfield" was known as the U.S. Model 1917. Apparently all the P-14s were shipped to Great Britain, and none were converted for the Springfield cartridge..

Ultimately the American Expeditionary Force went to war with 1,235,298 Model 1917 "American Enfield" rifles (Springfield's new production of M1903s contributed about half that amount). Once the war was over, the Springfield Armoury -- a government owned facility -- established the M1903 as the Army standard weapon until the late 1930s when the M1 Garand became destined to replace it. The M1917s were stored away for 20 years.

The Battle of Britain in 1940 was horrible, and President Roosevelt ordered over a 1 million Model 1917 rifles taken from storage to send to England. Apparently Britain "paid" for the guns, but it was obvious the war effort would bankrupt Britain. Other private war contracts, such as the Savage Stevens No.4 Mk1 rifle, were in jeopardy because Britain was strapped for funds.

Churchill was back and forth to the White House, and Roosevelt was highly supportive of Churchill's pleas. So Roosevelt proposed the Lend-Lease program, which passed Congress in March of 1941, making arms "sales" legal and providing the cash to support the effort. What went on with cash and lease programs between 1940 and March 1941 is a matter of bookkeeping -- but among allies, the legalities were less important than defeating Hitler.

We all owe Churchill and Roosevelt a debt of gratitude for their ability to get arms into British hands to hold on under desperate circumstances. Our collections of British, Canadian, American, and Australian Enfields stand as tribute to their courage and vigilance.

[RCS]

Attachment 67623

Some British military cartridges:

577/450, 303 Mark 11, 276 Enfield, 303 Mark 7, 4,85mm, 7,62mm and 5,56mm

note the size of the 276 Enfield

[Seaspriter]

Some British military cartridges:
577/450, 303 Mark 11, 276 Enfield, 303 Mark 7, note the size of the 276 Enfield

Thanks for the pics RCS. The .276 looks like it would pack a powerful wallop.
I'm not familiar with some of the pre-WWI cartridges that appear twisted and bent like a tin can, and have the bullet taped on -- like the 577/450. Were they so fragile? They look dangerous to put in a gun. What was going on in those days?
Thanks

[Paul S.]

I believe the case 'wrinkling' was because blackpowder cartridge cases were much thinner and softer than Nitro-cellulose cases.

[Eaglelord17]

Thanks for the pics RCS. The .276 looks like it would pack a powerful wallop.
I'm not familiar with some of the pre-WWI cartridges that appear twisted and bent like a tin can, and have the bullet taped on -- like the 577/450. Were they so fragile? They look dangerous to put in a gun. What was going on in those days?
Thanks

From what I heard, one of the main issues with the development of the P13 was the ammo. Manufacturers were having a tough time making and designing the ammo, and recoil was apparently brutal on the shooter. From what I understand it was a 165grn bullet going about 2800 ft/sec which is pretty impressive by any means.