Bren Mk1 1942

[TactAdv]

I'm after an authentic Bren, i.e. one that hasn't be altered too much or rebuilt after the war.
Alaric

That's easy! You find them stacked right next to all the original, unaltered M1 Carbines.

-TomH (not enough coffee this morning, yet.)

[Peter Laidler]

That made me laugh Tom! I just repeat the same about original unaltered No4's and L1A1's. The thousands that came through our Armourers shops only came through because something was wrong with them. We fixed 'em and sent them out. We didn't care who made the parts........ If Ordnance supplied them, we used them!

[Flying10uk]

The Mk1 Bren which I have is in excellent overall condition but a real mix-master of parts. Just about every part on the weapon has seen service on another first and the parts are made by various manufacturers, U.K. and Canadian. The serial numbered parts have been renumbered to match the original number on the top of the main body (the gun has taken the identity of this number) and some of the internals also have Canadian acceptance/war department markings. What I have noticed is that all the additional/replacement numbers have been electro-pencilled on by hand rather than stamped or machine engraved. Is/was it normal practice for Canadian Armourers to renumber weapons and parts of weapons using an electro-pencil and British Armourers to renumber using stamps and/or machine engravers, please?

[Peter Laidler]

Generally speaking, at the big workshops where a gun was totally rebuilt then the parts were numbered using the engraving machine. But a total rebuild didn't necessarily mean that new parts were fitted. Barrel nuts were always (?) re-used time and time again. Where a pair of barrels were matched-up for even wear and fitted then the odd one would be put back in the rack to match up with another later and so on. Old number barred out and new one engraved.

We weren't allowed to cannibalise guns as such. They had to go back to Ordnance (the RSSD) complete. But a gun going back for scrap would occasionally be sent back full of scrap parts and always went back with shot-out or old ex DP barrels!

At unit level the old number would be barred out and re-stamped CAREFULLY or in the case of the barrel nuts and piston extension/breech block (L4's) which were, er....., jolly hard, etched with the electric pencil which we called 'the scratchy pen'. Originally, Bren breech blocks weren't numbered but the later L4's were always numbered in the side recess. From the mid 70's or so we used to number the Bren breech blocks too. The piston extension was numbered with just the gun letter prefix and number across it on the flat just ahead of the piston post.

The master number was always the one on the top of the body of course - as was the Mk/type. So you'd see Mk2 guns that were effectively Mk3's..... But while some Ordnance/blanket stackers paperwork described them as Mk2/3's, they were just Mk2's!

Butt slides were a pig to number because you had to fit a special adaptor into the old TH engraver and in any case you had to strip the buffer. You just couldn't engrave them with the later gravograph machines. That's why Ordnance allowed an EMER change to number the butt slide on the left side. A real blessing from heaven that saved ages!

Some barrels, especially .303" Bren barrels that'd been around the block sometimes had 5 or 6 previous numbers on them.

[Flying10uk]

Peter when you were fitting second-hand replacement parts to a Bren such as, for example, a breech block or a barrel nut did they generally require much fettling/filing/adjusting in order to get the parts to fit/work properly/smoothly on a Bren? Or did they normally fit ok as they were, please?

[Peter Laidler]

You couldn't really fettle a breech block or a barrel nut as they were too hard. Although you could carefully stone the locking bent of a breech block to suit the fit to the closest locking shoulder size. Wood ALWAYS had to be hand fitted but generally things just needed a bit of adjustment here or there. Pistons would under or over turn and you'd get a sloppy fit so they had to be sorted out. Bipods always had to be fitted to grip the body sides. And NO, you weren't allowed to just bend them to fit.

For some reason the change lever detent plungers and springs always seemed to be jammed in too. But selective fitting was the norm. The Bren was a simpler machine than the L4 guns

[TactAdv]

The Bren was a simpler machine than the L4 guns

Whoa! What?? Ok, you can't just let THAT ONE dangle........pls explain a bit more on that statement, as to me they are merely progressive variants of the same thing, as would be ALL derivitives of the ZGB33???

-TomH

[Peter Laidler]

I mean that given a Bren to set-up from scratch on the bench or an L4A2, I'd select a Bren. For a start you could use barrel shims on an Bren. There was no stoning of the breech block surfaces to clear the barrel face on the .303" guns either. That's just for starters............. I'll come back tomorrow and give you some more examples............

[Flying10uk]

Thanks, Peter, this has been a very interesting thread. The elongated slot on the butt group in which the body retention pin fits seem to have a slit cut through the top of the slot on De-acc examples which I have seen. Am I correct in thinking that this is simply part of the De-acc procedure here in the U.K. so as to weaken the gun or was it some kind of in-service modification, perhaps to ease the removal of the pin, please? Also am I correct in thinking that the Bren body was machined out of a solid billet of steel or was it cast and then machined, please? Thanks.

[Peter Laidler]

I think that the slot above the body locking pin housing is a recent addition to the deactivation process. Quite why, nobody seems to know as it's not on others and quite who authorised it is another of life's little mysteries too. Additionally, the slit would make no difference to the butt slide if you were to use it like that on a live Bren because the gun recoil is taken on the outer edge of the buffer while the energy absorbed by the reciprocating breech block and piston assembly is absorbed by the centre of the buffer. Body was machined from a forged roughly to shape block of steel.