Treasures of the Khyber Pass - "Martini Henry" edition

[Sentryduty]

While digging through another thread the term Khyber Pass came up and it reminded me that I have interesting photos of such rifles to share.

Attached are some photos taken from the bazaar that was located just inside the wire at Kandahar Airfield, Afghanistan, my notes remind me that these photos were taken on 8 April 2006, nearly a decade ago.

I did not take any photos of the overall rifles as I was trying to record markings to verify if any of these guns were real once I could obtain internet access. However due to operational tempo this was my first and last trip to the market and I was unable arrange purchase or shipment of a wall hanger.

But now each of you can share in the quality craftsmanship of Khyber Pass "Genuine Fakes" and I hope everyone will take turns picking out the various errors in their copies. I seem to have collected photos of two rifles each a little different.

Enjoy!

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Not all 100% fakes. The B.S.A.&M.Co. looks like a genuine receiver, the II being offset because it was upgraded from a MkI and the second I was added on the right of the first I.
The trigger looks original - compare it with the one in the second photo, which (as usual for fakes) fails to achieve the fine sweeping curve of an original. Same applies to the recess in the block.

The barrel could also be OK, although ever since I found an M-H with markings that were simply too crisp to be true, and under an eyeglass appeared to have in fact been photo-etched, I am very reluctant to give markings a positive verdict by a photo alone. (Once again, it was the inconsistency that aroused my suspicion in that case)

I think you may have missed a near-enough original M-H MkII there! The first rule of markets is "I may never come this way again" - as demonstrated in your case! I.e. sometimes one has to decide on the spot on the basis of incomplete information. But it was a long learning curve to achieve the necessary level of confidence before I dared to buy my M-H!

The problem is, for about 200 years everything in Afghanistan that could go "bang" has been recycled. As a result, many fakes include some genuine parts. Back in the 19th and early 20th century the primary aim was to "keep 'em banging", not faking. The out-and-out fakery for the souvenir trade is (my guess) post WWII.

My general rule in assessing old artefacts is to look for inconsistencies. But with guns out of Afghanistan it is almost the norm that they are inconsistent. If I was looking for an M-H I would be happy to find an original barrel/receiver/block combination as being the heart of the rifle, other components being replaceable or repairable.

BTW, please note how often I use wording like "seems/ appears/could be..." If I have learnt one thing in evaluating old guns over the years, it is that while one can often spot a fake on a photo, it is much more difficult to make a positive evaluation! So I may be wrong in my judgement of the rifles shown in your photos.

[Badger]

Although not a Martini, for anyone who may have missed it this associated article ...

With thanks to member Steve H. in N.Y., there's an excellent MKL entry in the United Kingdom - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here)

“Khyber Pass” Lee-Enfield No.I Mk.III* Rifle (click here)

Regards,
Doug

[Sentryduty]

Not all 100% fakes.

That is interesting! I know at the time I had that one tagged as a possible real rifle, but lacking any real knowledge beyond being able to tell the difference between a Martini-Henry and an umbrella, I was not ready to gamble. If I remember correctly the seller's asking price was $500 (USD) but in the market everything was haggled down, the successful buyers later told me that about $225 USD was the rock bottom on any "gun" from a bazaar seller.

Arranging shipping was another hassle, DHL was handling outbound packages, there were a few paperwork hoops to jump through, and living out of a duffle bag and a couple barracks boxes didn't really permit a storage solution for a new rifle. The missed opportunity was bittersweet, and just not meant to be in my case.

While I don't have any photos, in a plot twist later in the tour, in Helmand province we seized a genuine Long Branch 1944 marked Lee-Enfield, although it was heavily jingled, underneath was a formerly nice light blond stock, and the action worked smoothly. A Canadian rifle being fired at us Canadians, the silly irony of it all was not lost on us lads.

[butlersrangers]

'Sentryduty' - Thanks for sharing your pictures of the 'Market Place' and for your service.

Years ago, (back in the 1970s and 80s), I had a .303 caliber Khyber Pass copy of a M-H Artillery Carbine. It was pretty convincing, until you looked at the "rifling" and upside-down #8 on the rear-sight leaf. Strangely, the breech-block and extractor were real British parts. Everything else was handcrafted. I kind of wish I had kept it.

Patrick seems 'spot on' in his observations. I am sure that 1875 B.S.A. Manufacturing. Co. receiver is real. I was pretty convinced of this rear-sight being authentic, until I noticed the 'hand stamped' 200 yard marking. (I took the liberty of re-posting a couple of your pictures) Thanks Again!

Attachment 68919Attachment 68920

[Patrick Chadwick]

Strangely, the breech-block and extractor were real British parts.

Not strange! If you were Ali Bubba hand-carving a Martini you would gladly use any original parts you could find, and save yourself a lot of work. And the contour of the depression in the block is one of those aspects that the "carvers" never seem to get quite right.

---------- Post added at 12:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 AM ----------

I know at the time I had that one tagged as a possible real rifle, but lacking any real knowledge beyond being able to tell the difference between a Martini-Henry and an umbrella, I was not ready to gamble.

A correct decision. The price was by no means an unrepeatable bargain offer and, if the barrel was bad, far too high for a wallhanger. Take your time (4 years, in my case) and learn what you can, so that when you do find "your" Martini you can make a quick but low-risk decision.

---------- Post added at 12:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 AM ----------

I was pretty convinced of this rear-sight being authentic, until I noticed the 'hand stamped' 200 yard marking.

And if the rifle in the first photo was "muzzle-up", then the backsight was mounted back-to-front. The shooter has to be able to read the slider when the leaf is up! And the vertical edge of the sight has to be towards the shooter's eye, for contrast. That alone does not prove it's fake - but it's a detail that makes you want to look more closely.

[Sentryduty]

Attachment 68928Here is another rifle from the same vendor but not a Martini-Henry:

[Patrick Chadwick]

P1858 lockplate looks OK, hammer is dubious, "snail" with nipple is wrong - on genuine Enfields the curve of the snail follows the curve of the lockplate very closely indeed - trigger guard is homemade or extremely worn. Not sure about trigger. Fixed backsight is either ex-British "native" version (in which case, the barrel will be smoothbore) or homemade. Probably a mix of original and homemade parts - like so many of them.

Over the years (no, make that centuries!) the former British rifles in Afghanistan went through the following stages.
1) Real originals - stolen or battlefield pickups.
2) The same, but with some parts replaced by handmade bits to keep them going.
3) Finally worn out to uselessness, and broken up to keep other rifles going.
4) Finally worn out to uselessness, but completed with handmade bits to sell as souvenirs.
5) Assembled as "genuine fakes" from whatever could be found, carved, or bent into shape, purely for souvenir-hunters.

Needless to say, 1) is extremely rare 2) is possible, most have gone via 3) to stages 4) and 5).

General rule: only pay for a wallhanger, be happy if you get something better!

There are two exceptions to the above: genuine copies of Enfield Rifles made in the Kabul arsenal in the 1870s, during the rule of Sher Khan - a name that would have been known to Kipling when he wrote the "Jungle Book". Not as tourist rubbish but as proper weaponry. With a lockplate like this:

Odd Snider lock from our favorite part of the world in Snider-Enfield Forum Forum

Or rifles made in the successor establishment - the Mashin Khana - under British control:

Mashin Khana | Railways of Afghanistan

Note that real Kabul rifles of both periods have proper identification on the lockplate/receiver, and do NOT have any imitations of British marks.

((Sorry, lost my photos. Will update this post when I have found them!))

[Sentryduty]

I though you might enjoy seeing that one, there were others examples with more obvious problems, like the "N" was stamped backwards in "ENFIELD" or weapons heavily salted with stampings in excess. Why would a gun have the exact same proof mark stamp 3 times in a row? Obvious fakery no doubt.

[boltaction]

I found this thread and thought some might enjoy seeing photos of a Khyber Martini-Henry cavalry carbine I own. I bought it at auction, knowing full well from the photos that it was not "correct", but I just had to have it. I haven't stripped it down completely, and am not sure if I could re-orient the cocking indicator to the correct position or not. There is rifling, albeit crude, but that is to be expected for a barrel as old and rare as this one--the 1862 dated Martini barrels are amongst the scarcest and hardest to find . The chequering for the thumbrest on the receiver is rather crude. I am a little hazy on my British monarchy history, but I don't remember any recent rulers "T V".... The buttstock has some wood filler in a couple of places, and has a faint "roundel" stamp but the wood is the wrong type to be original British. Now, whether this piece was made to be used or made for the more recent tourist trade is hard to know, but either way it is a pretty neat piece, and goes nicely next to my Martini Mk I

Ed