February American Rifleman

[lemaymiami]

I'm a retired cop (served from the last day of 1973 to 1995 down here in paradise ,south Florida, during the height of the party....) and I have killed on the street when I had to (one shot fired in 22 years.....). I only mention it for some background on my remarks.

I recently decided that I needed a carbine (the original PDW) for the exact purpose it was originally designed for -as a personal defense weapon for my vehicle (I have a different weapon for home defense purposes). I know that the original military "hardball" ammo means great penetration - but could probably be improved upon in the civilian world. I remembered reading that a NYPD stakeout team had great results using softpoint ammo working robbery details in the late sixties.... That was specifically why I chose a carbine (the other two "possibles" were a mini 30 tactical from Ruger or an S&W sport 15 in .223 -but the carbine was just much more interesting..). I'm also a Vietnam vet (although only a pencil pusher back in 1971) and I did remember that many of the ARVNs were equipped with carbines as well...

So with all that in mind I recently purchased an old carbine in nearly new condition (not a USGI -in today's world they're out of my range). It was a Plainfield and appears to have come from the early seventies -towards the end of their production time. Haven't been to the range with it yet so that we can get acquainted. When I do it will be with hardball to verify aim, function, reliability then finally with softpoints to make sure it feeds them properly and that I can go through a box without an jams, failures to fire, etc.

Once it passes it will go into service - and I'll be pretty confident that it will be exactly what I want - something quick and maneuverable with a bit more power than .357 for the possibility that it might one day really be needed. I've read a lot of accounts about the performance issues in the Korean conflict and I can understand that concern. I also know that many cartridges don't perform up to spec in extreme cold weather (not a concern in my world).... Unfortunately, down here... if I ever need a weapon away from home I'll probably be facing more than one opponent - just what that little carbine was intended for....

[DaveHH]

Using the Chosin as an example of carbine performance isn't fair. I don't buy the argument about the extra burden of an M1 rifle endangering the Marine Corps. The guys who are humping base plates and pig guns are always the big lads and the difference between 6lbs and 9lbs isn't going to bother most people, it's all heavy.

I'll bow out of this talk by saying that in the 60s and 70s I worked with maybe a dozen Chosin and China Marines. Getting drafted in 1965 and returning from Vietnam in 1967 made me even more inquisitive. I am a history nut and talked to these guys a lot. To a man, 100% disliked the Carbine as a tool of war.

[JOHN42768]

For what it is worth. There are may thousands of dead buried enemy solders who could attest to the effectiveness of both the M1 Carbine and the Garand. I don't believe any of them would pick one over the other.

[USGI]

My February copy of AR arrived yesterday and I haven't had time to read the article as yet. I can recommend the book, "US Infantry Weapons in Combat - Personal Experiences from World War II and Korea" to anyone who would like to read further on the subject. It has the personal stories of 65 soldiers who were interviewed during the book's writing. Here's a link that has some notes from the publisher, Scott Duff. The notes pretty much sum up the contents. - Bob
http://www.amazon.com/Infantry-Weapo.../dp/1888722150

[Seaspriter]

US Infantry Weapons in Combat - Personal Experiences from World War II and Korea"

Looks like a fascinating book. Here's a quote from the Foreword by Scott Duff:
"The differing opinions of these men is fascinating. One man loved the M1 rifle and hated the M1 carbine while the next loved the M1 carbine and hated the M1 rifle." I think those opinions have not diminished in 70 years. Each was designed for a purpose, and, more than likely, was hated when used outside its scope of design.

[firstflabn]

The guys who are humping base plates and pig guns are always the big lads and the difference between 6lbs and 9lbs isn't going to bother most people, it's all heavy.

Except that ditching 7-1/2 lb. M1919A4 spare barrels at the Chosin happened frequently enough to warrant mention in the "lessons learned" section of the 1MARDIV AAR. Silly me, when I read the phrase "due to the extra weight" I leaped to the conclusion that weight was somehow a factor. Maybe the big boys were all toting the 81mm mortars and HMGs.

I don't have a detailed T/O for a USMC KW rifle company to see whether weapons crews had pistols or carbines. In the 1944 version, I was surprised to see that everybody in the USMC 60mm mortar and LMG crews were authorized carbines, while in the army equivalent the gunners and their assistants had pistols. Would be interesting to know their thought processes. Different outcomes perhaps, but both services were looking for an edge - to win and to save lives.

[DaveHH]

There is a big difference between dumping a spare barrel and choosing a marginal weapon that may save your life to avoid humping a couple of pounds. SLA Marshall's somewhat believable books chronicle the Army personnel dumping everything, spare ammunition, grenades, over the matter of weight. I would not expect the same behavior from Marines. HMGs were rarely carried. I'll give you another theoretical instance that you can pick apart: Suppose your assistant gunner and ammo bearers are humping cans of belted ammunition in addition to a spare barrel in a piece of web gear that may be a genuine hassle to keep on board comfortably. You ask the SGT if it's ok to ditch the barrel and pick it up later or just forget about it. If there has been no use of it for several days, it might be a great idea to dump it in favor of bullets. Gas masks are dumped by the hundreds, was there a "lesson learned" on that?

[ChipS]

There is a big difference between dumping a spare barrel and choosing a marginal weapon that may save your life to avoid humping a couple of pounds. SLA Marshall's somewhat believable books chronicle the Army personnel dumping everything, spare ammunition, grenades, over the matter of weight. I would not expect the same behavior from Marines. HMGs were rarely carried. I'll give you another theoretical instance that you can pick apart: Suppose your assistant gunner and ammo bearers are humping cans of belted ammunition in addition to a spare barrel in a piece of web gear that may be a genuine hassle to keep on board comfortably. You ask the SGT if it's ok to ditch the barrel and pick it up later or just forget about it. If there has been no use of it for several days, it might be a great idea to dump it in favor of bullets. Gas masks are dumped by the hundreds, was there a "lesson learned" on that?

Without getting too nostalgic, back in the 'Old Corps' (LOL) in Vietnam (almost) everybody in a USMC rifle company carried something besides their personal ammo & gear - gun ammo, LAAWS, claymores and/or 60mm mortar rounds, take your pick, they all get heavy. Nobody was allowed to ditch nothin', and that was true for gas masks. Lose your gas mask and you would probably be standing before the man explaining and paying. That may not be true today now that the Marines will be deploying 110 pound little girls in their front line infantry units. God help us. Semper Fi.

[DaveHH]

My Marine pals tell me that the Commandant had a cow when our boy Ash Carter decided that women belong in 0311 slots. Wait until Daddy's little girl comes home with one eye and a leg missing. I've never thought it was a good idea at all but I also think it is a bad idea to have 38 year old men with families getting shot to pieces or trying to hump with 20 year olds. Not everyone is a top 2% Operator type. But it's a different time and a different war.

[lemaymiami]

Chip, when I was with the 101Abn (1971) we were still there after the Marines left the area north of us (north of Hue)... That was a very lonely feeling for this guy, all those years ago. I worked with many former marines in my police career, and to a man they were first rate.... Any police recruiters would be lucky to have them as applicants -in any era...