Buying a used mauser

[lyon13]

I apologize if this is repetitive or posted in the wrong board, ok so when it comes to shooting guns I know quite a bit, buying a new gun I would say that my knowledge is serviceable but a used gun, I know almost nothing. I am hoping to get someone's opinion who is much more knowledgable about if these bore are any good, just a note i am looking for a hunting rifle not a display or collectible but i do want original furniture.

so i have narrowed it down to these there rifles
option #1

a yugo 24/47 with the bayonet<- the main selling point to me
costs 300+ffl fees
option #2
a 1923 czech cz 89/22

155+ffl
option #3
An Italian TS carbine 8x57 Mauser

an auction with no bids at the time i am posting this. asking price is 325

Information

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[Patrick Chadwick]

Thank you for providing good illustrations on a topic that needs illumination. Many people think that they can look down a bore and judge a rifle correctly. So they will probably rate the bores shown here in the order in which you have posted them.

In fact, all three may be perfectly serviceable rifles, but the parts that matter are not shown in the photos. Neither are they obvious by looking straight down the bore.

1) The most important is the muzzle. The very best bore will not be much use if the muzzle is damaged, or bell-mouthed. In such a case, the bullet will emerge with an uneven gas thrust over the last fraction of an inch, causing it to be diverted off the axis of the barrel.
a) The Hannover "Pickelgewehr" (pillar-breech rifle) as found. Looked like a hopeless case.
Attachment 70195
b) Cleaned up and recrowned. Rifling right to the end. BTW, all other photos show the rifles as found!
Attachment 70194
Swiss Peabody. As found. Clean rifling right up to the end.
Attachment 70198
And an as-new SMLE muzzle
Attachment 70199
Note the trick: plugging the bore with a piece of white felt provides a good diffused backlight to show up the rifling and the muzzle when the photo is at an angle to the bore axis. The "straight down the bore" view effectively blinds the eye (or the camera) to the muzzle area.

2) The second most important is the throat or transition. It is also the most difficult item to photograph!
This region is often seriously worn in old service rifles, making it difficult to prepare cartridges that seat the bullet cleanly in the throat. Looseness here causes gas blow-by that erodes the throat further. Because the loaded cartridge must have some play, it sits on the bottom of the chamber. So the bullets are rammed into the throat on a slight skew which is engraved on the bullet - which then emerges from the muzzle with a "wobble". I invite you to calculate how much axis skew over the length of a bullet corresponds to 1 MOA. The amount is very, very small.

My 1871 Mauser
Attachment 70200

And the Martini-Henry.
Attachment 70197


It is not easy to look at or photograph these areas. But much more important than admiring the rifling by looking straight down the bore. Do the same with the 3 rifles you have presented, and the choice may be much easier.

[Sentryduty]

Patrick, top notch post!

[lyon13]

Sadly i am shopping online as the local gun shop is all big box stores and they are interested in selling my high priced chinese knock offs than being helpful and the local small time hop doesn't have any in stock last time i looked

[vintage hunter]

Many people think that they can look down a bore and judge a rifle correctly.

The most important is the muzzle. The very best bore will not be much use if the muzzle is damaged, or bell-mouthed.

My camera nor skills as a photographer are as good as Patrick's but these lousy photos are an attempt to show the muzzle of my first LE No.4 T, a well worn ex- Indian rebuild I purchased online about 6 years ago. Seller stated bore condition as being free of rust or pits, bright and shiny, and it was. Had I been able to examine it in person though I would've noticed the egg shaped muzzle and one land completely worn away to a depth of around 3/4'' and passed on the deal. Damage was most likely caused by a steel cleaning rod used without a bore guide. I was quite disappointed as there was no return option. Wasn't expecting much in the way of acceptable groups. Imaging my surprise and relief after finally working up the nerve to take it to the range for the acid test and got consistent 1 m.o.a. 3 shot groups at 100yds using handloads with 174gr BTHP bullets. With salvaged bullets and cordite from POF Mk.7 click bangers loaded into new cases with good primers 3 shot groups average 1.5 m.o.a. out to 400 yards. Greek HXP isn't quite as accurate but still acceptable with average 3 shot groups measuring 2 m.o.a. out to 400. During the 2012 deer season I used this rifle and a round loaded with salvaged POF Mk.7 components to kill a sneaky buck at, believe it or not, 303 yards. Like the old saying goes, you can't judge a book by it's cover.

[cipherk98]

Something to keep in mind is that most of those rifles are at least 70 years old and some are approaching 100. Many saw at least one world war and often regional conflicts after that. So many of them are worn and tend to have a little character. The others above have pretty nicely spelled out what to look for with the bore. One safety thing I'd consider is getting the headspace checked, especially if the bolt doesn't match. A gunsmith can do this or if you plan on buying more Mausers you can invest in a set and do it yourself. Plus if you plan to buy more milsurps I suggest getting a C&R, it's only 30 bucks, not really any harder than a normal background check to get, and will come in handy if you want to buy more.

Also, some online outlets have Yugos fresh out of the crate. While you may not know what you will get as they grab them out of a crate, I do know that while on the high side Aim has matching Yugo M48s which probably aren't a bad starter Mauser as a shooter or in a collection as while Yugos are common, having a matching gun (not sure if they are original matching or renumbered after a rebuild by the arsenal) is always nice. If not several other outlets have M24/47s for around, or a bit less, than that one on Gunbroker. Having the bayonet is nice if you have all the other accessories but I don't think Mausers were generally sighted with them (someone correct me) so it's not a must have to me, though if you value that at around $50-70 that puts the gun at $230-250 which is not bad. With those of course you'll have to clean up cosmoline but that's part of the fun of buying a surplus gun! Just depends on what kind of Mauser you want.

[WarPig1976]

One safety thing I'd consider is getting the headspace checked, especially if the bolt doesn't match. A gunsmith can do this or if you plan on buying more Mausers you can invest in a set and do it yourself.

Headspace is a completely overblown issue. I don't even worry about it, matched bolt or not. Unless one is building rifles I'd say investing in gauges is a waste of money.

[Aragorn243]

I'll jump right in here and say what everyone else avoided in the discussion of bore condition. Drop the Carcano TS 8MM from consideration. It's not a mauser, it's a carcano manlicher which was never designed to fire the 8mm round and was converted to accept available ammunition either by the Germans in WWII or by the Italian's post war so they could sell them off to Egypt. It's probably safe to shoot but won't be comfortable to shoot and the clips will be a real pain to deal with. They have to be converted to accept the 8mm round.

The 24/47 looks like it may have been counterbored. Not necessarily a bad thing for shooting but as mentioned above Yugo M48's can be found for the same price and they were rarely used much at all and many are like new.

[Calif-Steve]

Years back I did the Allentown Gunshow on a regular basis. No idea what it is like now, but you will find lots of nice stuff at the big gunshows.

[Aragorn243]

Allentown Gunshow is pricy. I don't go very often for that reason. You might find something you won't find anywhere else but you need to be prepared to pay for it. Can't quite figure it out as there are numerous large shows that the same people can or will attend, Harrisburg, Oaks near Philly, Bloomsburg. Allentown just seems to add 30% to everything.