Mk 4 .303 Headstamp Question

[mike1967]

I believe a MkIII would sell for around that price, There is only the one or two examples, All were used up for practice or converted to blanks, one was the late Peter Labbett's as illustrated in his book. Thats probably the one that got the 3k. I have seen plenty of single 303 rounds sell for $200- $600 at auction.

[jonnyc]

Well, it's not often I feel the need to apologize, but it seems I was wrong about the value of a Mk.III round. I did a bit of research in the collector community and now believe there are at least 5 known examples, and one sold for well over the $3000 mentioned above. As it turns out, I'm actually good friends with the new owner and I'll get a confirmation when I visit with him next month.
It is truly a small world.

[CINDERS]

I have seen a de-act complete 88mm shell with an asking price of $1,000.oo/AU some 8 years ago at a military fair it wasn't there on the last day, I scrounged an unopened yellow packet of 10 Kynoch .33 rimless for $175 I see there is an ammo dealer in the U.K who is selling them for $80.oo/round and are always sold out looking for more, if people want something bad enough they will pay.

A friend of mine paid $700 for a single shotgun shell made by the Wellington Surplus store in Perth but it is in the super rare category his munitions and cartridge packet collection is awesome along with his African trophy room, at last count he had in his collection 110 plus rifles yep go figure, if you don't care on splashing the cash why not do it.
By the way he is very modest on what he has but seems to sniff out really good deals on obscure stuff and is a hard man to beat in getting stuff as we have a friendly rivalry of which my meager purse cannot match mind you I got a nice Shin Gunto 98 made in 1944 swapping it for a 1917 EFD '07 valued at $170/AU so I did well there.

You want it you will pay.........

[DocAV]

Fo9llowing on from the "Mark II Dum-Dum Special" ( an experimental cartidge made in Dum-Dum Arsenal (Calcutta) in 1895-98 for use in the North West Frontier Province against rebellious tribesmen, The British gov't started experinments in making a "Better" Mushrooming Bullet (Soft Point, or "punched-in Hollow Points, giving rise to the Mark III, Mark IV and Mark V designs.

Mark V ammo was initially issued to British troops in South Africa for use against the Boers ( 1898) But the Hague Convention of 1899 Banned the use of "Expanding" Bullets against "European" Troops ( That included non-White Troops with European style Training and Command Structure...ie, National Armies. opf Japan, Siam, China, etc.

Britain instantly withdrew use of these "Dum-Dum" type cartridges , but sufficient quantities remained in store, and were re-allocated for Training use only. (some were dismantled for making Blank cartridges). But there were sufficient in South Africa that many soldiers "souvenired" examples (most of the Mark V in Australia were "Bring-backs" from the Boer War.)
Existing unused stocks of these Marks were used in the "Mad Mullah" rebellion in Somaliland/Somalia in 1903-1907 ( the "enemy" was Black, Native, and "not an organised Army"; the Suppression was considered a "Police action". so all types of ammo could be used (lead Ball revolver ammo, Expanding Rifle Bullets.).

Several other Nations also did some work on Expanding Bullets in the 1890s, but all this ceased with ratification of the Convention of 1899.
Some got around the Prohibition with "Observer" cartridges (Impact exploders); The most famous (infamous) was the 8mm Austrian Mannlicher "Observer" used against Serbian MG crews in 1914-15.

Doc AV

[Sentryduty]

Some got around the Prohibition with "Observer" cartridges (Impact exploders); The most famous (infamous) was the 8mm Austrian Mannlicher "Observer" used against Serbian MG crews in 1914-15.

Doc, I looking to do some further reading on this topic (as I frequently do around here) since your post has piqued my interest. A quick google showed up nothing, do you have a reference or publication I could follow up?

Not doubting the facts of the statement, but I would like to read as much as I could on the event.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

And the prize for the most elegant "work-around" must go to the .303Mk7 projectile.

With higher velocity by a fair margin, than any previous .303 Service bullet and a carefully crafted core inside a much thinner and softer jacket than the older Mk6 cupro nickel job, the Mk7 was very well balanced in flight, but became spectacularly unstable on impact with some unfortunate living tissue.

It is entirely likely that this "jolly" convergence was partly "accidental".

To work in the existing fleet of rifles and MGs, the loaded cartridge had to have the same overall loaded length as the superseded round-nosed jobs. There WAS an experimental "lightweight" bullet doing the "rounds" not long after the Teutonic types introduced their 7.92mm "spitzer" in the early 20th Century. but it was shorter than the final Mk7 and thus was never used in service. That event also stirred the Americans into ditching their "brand-new" .(1903) .30 cal rimless job and introducing the mighty .30-06 and re-jigging a bunch of the equally new Springfield rifles.

A conventional core in this new Mk7 bullet would have meant insufficient weight reduction to achieve the desired velocity and trajectory whilst operating within specified pressures. Hence the little lightweight (paper, aluminium, etc.) filler cone inside the pointy end of the jacket.

This construction gave the required mechanical properties and muzzle velocity. The SMLE, being noticeably shorter than its ancestors, automatically produced lower velocities for any given ammo. Creative "taper-lapping" of the bore to raise muzzle velocity only meant a reduction of both barrel life AND in the precision of shooting.

The other bit of 'serendipity" was that, because the bullet was more-or less the same LENGTH as the old Mk6, the twist-rate in the barrels, as per Greenhill's studies, had to stay the same 1:10" rate. This also allowed the continuing use of earlier pattern ammo for training / "emergencies" as long as one could live with the odd behaviour in the magazines of rifles or the somewhat different range tables for machine-guns.

Moving the centre of mass REARWARDS virtually guaranteed that the bullet, quite stable in flight, would become VERY unstable VERY soon after impact with anything denser than air.