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    Contributing Member oldyella's Avatar
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    Rigby Officer's Lee E. Carbine

    Saw this on gunboards and something doesn’t look right to me. So I thought I’d ask the experts to see what they think?

    Rigby Officer's Lee E. Carbine (Gunboards Link)

    (I apologize if you've seen this before. I don't know how much crosspollening there is between Lee Enfield forums and I'm trying to reach as many collectors as possible)

    The title above was how Rigby described my carbine in their ledger – Action no. 11583 and serial no. 1388. This commercial “Lee Speed Patents” and “B.S.A. & Co” marked carbine was sold by Rigby in this configuration. It’s not a NRAA cut-down Long Lee target or range-pattern, not a territorial or a constabulary, and it hasn't been bubba-chopped. Rigby was apparently selling these for front line service. Along with Lee Speed and BSA markings it has “John Rigby & Co., 72 St. James St, London” engraved on the top of the barrel, “For Cordite Only,” “Nitro Proved,” and commercial proof marks on the barrel and receiver. According to the ledger, the carbine was sold with the 24-inch barrel, weighing 8 lbs. 14 oz., and was “sighted 1950 yards with bayonet.” There are no military markings. Although finished to a higher level than a standard military weapon, this carbine is by far the most utilitarian Rigby firearm that I’ve ever seen. Is this something that BSA made and Rigby put their name on it? It is somewhat different from other military carbines available at the time like the Lee Enfield Magazine Carbine, Military Patterns Nos. 1-3 that BSA & Co sold. It also doesn't match the RIC or New Zealandicon patterned carbines that one sees on occasion. While the 24-inch barrel is handier than the 30-inch rifle barrel, it’s still longer than most of the other carbines mentioned. Volley sights, a round bolt handle, and a 10-round magazine are uncommon characteristics, as well. Does the fact that this was specifically called “Rigby Officer’s Lee E. Carbine” rather than just Lee Enfield Carbine suggests that this is a Rigby proprietary firearm? As you will read below, in 1900 Rigby also sold as described Lee Enfield and Lee Metford carbines right along with this model. Unfortunately, no Rigby catalog that I can find includes this model or any Lee Metford or Enfield. Any comments or opinions would be greatly appreciated.

    Whether BSA made or Rigby made, I believe this to be a rare example. Why? Well, for one, because in 25 years of collecting I've never seen another one like it (Yes, I spend an unhealthy amount of time looking at guns and gun auctions on the web and I go to at least 10 gun shows a year).

    Another reason I think this is a rare bird is because Rigby was not known for building Lee Enfield based rifles. This is interesting because earlier in his career John Rigby was superintendent of the Royal Small Arms factory where the development of the Lee Enfield Rifleicon took place! He obviously thought the Mauser action was the way to go as Rigby was the exclusive distributor in the UK for Mauser (except for the Broomhandle pistol) by 1898 but had been building their own rifles on these actions since at least 1895. There was a discussion on the Lee Speed/Nitro Express forum 12 years ago about just how many Rigby LE .303s were sold. Paul Roberts, former owner of Rigby, was quoted as saying that it was not many. The guy ran the company and had looked at the ledgers so he would know. The only Rigby Enfield-based rifle that I’ve seen over the last 15 years was a Lee-Speed sporting rifle with nicely figured and checkered wood, engraving, barrel rib, express sights, and in a case. One. Yet, I would imagine that the majority of the Lee-Speed Enfield/Metford based rifles sold by Rigby would have been made/regulated during the Boer War. Rigby would have had to make some concessions if they wanted to sell rifles to their upper crust military customers from 1899-1902? Rule .303 rifles were de rigueur for the British and their allies.

    So how many of these were made? Without examining all the pages in the old ledger (something on my bucket list), anything would be a WAG. It’s not close to a representative sample but there are four carbines described exactly like my carbine listed on the ledger page that Rigby sent me and all four bought by officers going to the Boer War. There are also two “Lee Metford carbines”, a “Lee Enfield carbine” and a “Spt. Lee Enfield Rifle.” The latter purchased by the only non-military man in the bunch – a doctor. None of these are listed as Lee Speed Patents guns even though at least one was (mine). There are also three Mauser sporting rifles going to Manton & Co., five Webley WG Army Models, a “Service Revolver” and a Webley Mk III. Again, I don’t know what we can really make of these records. The best that can be said is that there were at least four of these Rigby Officer’s models sold. Has anyone else ever seen one like this ?

    The seller described this carbine as being purchased by H.F. Low on January 10, 1900 based on a phone conversation he had. Turns out that call was with Jeff Edman (known as jc5icon on this and several other forums) who I unknowingly contacted regarding adding my carbine to his Lee Speed database for an upcoming book. He said he knew my Rigby! Jeff was kind enough to confirm that the original ledger had this name, description and date – thanks Jeff!! Since communicating with Jeff, I contacted John Rigby & Co. to arrange to get an “official” copy of the ledger entry that contains my carbine – they were, as always, terrific to deal with.

    As a side note, it’s interesting to look at the page of the ledger from a historical perspective because it underlines how exclusive gunmakers like John Rigby & Co. were (and still are). There are three entries for the Churchill family. There were only three Churchill males old enough to be in uniform at this time and Winston was still in South Africa in January 1900 so we can eliminate him as a buyer. The two purchases for “ J. S Churchill” are most assuredly by Winston’s 19 year old little brother “Jack” or John Strange Spencer Churchill. Jack has become my new hero after reading about him in a book titled “The Churchills: A Family Portrait” by Lee and Lee – a fascinating guy and unbelievably loyal son and brother. The third entry is just “Spencer-Churchill” and has to be for “Sunny” or Charles Richard Spencer Churchill, the 9th Duke of Marlborough, Winston’s and Jack’s first cousin. In addition to the Duke, the ledger page also includes three future Knights of Englandicon, two future Barons, a Baronet, two future members of parliament, a former A.D.C. to a Lord., a Justice of the Peace and a Deputy Lieutenant (which I guess is a big deal in the UK?). The impending military careers of the Rigby clientele on the ledger are impressive to note as well with one future Brigadier General, seven future Lt. Colonels, and six future Majors. There are no fewer than six future DSO recipients in the group. In late 1899-early 1900, these persons were the epitome of British gentleman-soldiers of the day and H. F. Low was one of them. Through my research I’ve located only one officer in the British and Colonial armies for this time period with those first and middle initials and last name.

    Henry Frederic Low was born in 1875. His father, Francis Wise Low, was part of the Landed Gentry class in Ireland. The guy had the money to shop at John Rigby & Co. H. F. attended Eton College in 1892, attended Cambridge in 1894, and became a second lieutenant in the 1st Durham Militia Fusiliers in January 1895, a lieutenant in the Militia in February 1896, and then a Captain in May 1898. He was still a Captain when the Militia became the 3rd Battalion of the Durham Light Infantry (DLI) in late 1899 and then went to war. He shipped out on January 11, 1900 from Southampton on the troop ship R.M.S. Umbria. The timeline fits. Captain Low could have very easily bought the Rigby in London on January 10th and shipped out to fight the Boers the next day.

    I’ve found two photos of him fishing, of all things, during the voyage on the ship with fellow officers. Captain Low arrived in South Africa on January 29th. From photos available at the Durham County Record Office, it seems the 3rd Battalion was initially camped on the coast near E. London and then camped near Yellowwood (Forest?) further inland in February to March 1900. After that they were in the area of Springfontein from April to August 1900. Springfontein was a British concentration camp district so the 3rd Battalion may have been on guard in the area. There is a photo of Captain Low mounted in full gear near Mt Pelion that unfortunately does not show the carbine. His abbreviated official record in “War Services of Officers of the Army, Etc., 1916” confirms the above showing him participating in operations in the Orange Free State in Apr. and May 1900; in operations in Orange River Colony (the new name for the Orange Free State after being annexed by Great Britain) in May to Nov. 1900; in operations in Cape Colony, southwest of the Orange River Colony in 1900; and in other operations in Orange River Colony, Nov. 1900 to May 1901. So he pretty much was stationed in the same general area during his entire time in South Africa. I have only gone through a small percentage of the photos catalogued at the Record Office but none appear to show the 3rd Bn. in a battle or engaging the enemy so I’m not sure how much action he and his Rigby saw during his time there – I’m still working on the details. Of course, they did find time to play polo and golf. Captain Low arrived back in England on the Troopship Ulstermore in June of 1901. He received the Queen's medal with 3 clasps. Did he sell the Rigby upon his return or keep it for posterity? I haven't found any information yet. The carbine shows use but the fact that it has not been significantly modified for 116 years suggests long term ownership and/or storage by someone.

    After he returned from South Africa, he retired from the DLI and seemed to have initially lived the life of a gentleman politician, being present in the House of Commons in Parliament in 1905 and 1906. He married and had a child then tragically lost his first wife in 1908. The 1911 England census shows him at Frogmore Hall, Hertford – he apparently leased this incredible house (mansion, manor) and it shows he had married again (in 1910) and had his son from the 1st marriage with him. His occupation was “Private Means” and the census lists 32 rooms and nine servants in the house. Nine!! I'd be happy with one……part time. Three more children would follow with his second wife in the coming years. He purchased the Lavant House (another large estate that is now a girl’s school) near Chichester, Sussex sometime after 1911 but before 1914. He was reinstated as a Captain in the DLI at the start of WW1 but he was now with the 4th Battalion (formerly the 3rd Battalion), Special Reserve, Labour Corps, and remained so through the end of the war. The 4th Battalion was a training unit for the DLI and there is no evidence that he saw any combat in WWI. I haven’t found out anything about his activities after the War yet. He died in 1921 at the young age of 46 as a retired Major. His probate announcement shows his belongings were valued at 26,412 pounds Sterling – quite a tidy sum in 1921 when the average annual salary in the UK was around 150 pounds. Unfortunately, there was no probate inventory to determine if the Rigby was still in his possession at the time of his death. All four of his children have passed away but I am trying to locate any grandchildren to see if they remember the Rigby. His youngest son, John, (only 4 when his dad died) was killed in Normandy in 1944 as a Major in the DLI.

    In sum, all of the evidence I’ve found thus far points to this rare Rigby LE carbine being used by a known British officer during the Boer War. If that ain’t cool then I don’t know what is! Thanks for taking the time to read this overly long post. Hopefully more to come.

    John
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    I wanted to put my penny's worth in the Rigby Officer's Lee Enfield Cartbine post...

    The writer needs to be corrected on a few points... his 'carbine' is a cut-down.

    No respectable Britishicon maker would have his address disappear underneath the lower band.

    The BSA Catalogues specify the officer models and barrel lengths, this example is not there. None were fitted with the outer band either.

    To authenticate it merely from a Rigby day book entry is not the way to go either.

    Another point that irks me is the writers considered superiority of the Mauser over Lee-Enfield, a typical U.S. trait that is wrong.

    Another reason I think this is a rare bird is because Rigby was not known for building Lee Enfield based rifles. He obviously thought the Mauser action was the way to go as Rigby was the exclusive distributor in the UK for Mauser.
    This was due to patent rights, not because the Mauser was superior. Rigby never built a Lee-Metford or Lee-Enfield, only BSA and LSA, for this very reason.

    There was a discussion on the Lee Speed/Nitro Express forum 12 years ago about just how many Rigby LE .303s were sold. Paul Roberts, former owner of Rigby, was quoted as saying that it was not many. The guy ran the company and had looked at the ledgers so he would know. The only Rigby Enfield-based rifle that I’ve seen over the last 15 years was a Lee-Speed sporting rifle with nicely figured and checkered wood, engraving, barrel rib, express sights, and in a case. One. Yet, I would imagine that the majority of the Lee-Speed Enfield/Metford based rifles sold by Rigby would have been made/regulated during the Boer War. Rigby would have had to make some concessions if they wanted to sell rifles to their upper crust military customers from 1899-1902? Rule .303 rifles were de rigueur for the British and their allies.
    WAFFLE WAFFLE WAFFLE. So many assumptions and random thoughts plucked out of the air to support a theory.

    Cheers,
    Ian

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    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
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    Guess if the Mauser was superior to the Lee line of rifles the Britishicon army would have thrown all of their Lee Enfields into the mud at Flanders and such places and taken up Mausers.
    Each weapon has its good and bads but for me I know for a fact having read it somewhere the old soldiers used to p*ss on the actions to clear the mud out when they jammed from it and started to shoot them again, bit hard to clear the mud from a front locker like the Mauser unless you have a very large bladder....
    Last edited by CINDERS; 02-24-2016 at 08:32 AM.

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    Officer's Carbines and Target Rifles

    There seems to be very little information available about Lee Enfield Officer's Carbines or Officer's Target Rifles.

    I have one of the latter -- a Parker Hale conversion of a 1943 BSA FTR'd in 1947 with 21 1/2" barrel -- my father referred to it as an "Officer's Target Rifle," but I have no way to confirm if this is a common reference or just his own branding. Like the one pictured in Thread #1, it has no hand-guard covering, but has a full stock all the way to the muzzle. The magazine is 5 rounds, stamped "Made in Englandicon."

    Does anyone know of a resource for more information on Officer Carbines and Target Rifles?

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    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
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    Do you have pics of it Sea would be nice to view

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    Here's a picture
    Parker Hale started with a 1943 Maltby that had been FTR'd at Fazakerley shortly after the war. It has a replacement bolt (with the No.5 hollow ball) with a new Armourer's stamp that is exactly 11 numbers advanced from the receiver serial number (BG 13264 on the receiver & butt ring, and BG 13275 on the bolt -- perhaps the FTR Armourer was a little careless, as Capt. Laidlericon has inferred on other posts).

    P/H then added an aperture target sight. The muzzle was nipped to remove the bayonet lugs, recrowned, and the signature P/H foresight was mounted. They took a birch forend (most probably one of the Savage replacements shipped to the UK during the war – it has the "Square S" stamps on the forend cap) and shaved it down to make it more delicate, reducing the size of the forend cap from 2.3 inches (normal) to 1.9 inches. It was rebedded inside the forend from breech to muzzle in some form of brown "plastic-type" material.

    Weight (unloaded with sling) is exactly 8 pounds.

    I'd estimate the changes were done about 1947-51, although there is no date of the P/H rework. It does carry the "Englandicon" country of origin stamp and the "BNP" (Birmingham Nitro Proof) stamp, but no importer's stamp.

    I've not seen one of these in the old P/H catalogues (but I'm sure one of our forum members knows more about it than I).

    This isn't the standard "sporterized" Enfield for hunting. Probably not very valuable, but a bit unique and in good condition.
    Last edited by Seaspriter; 02-25-2016 at 10:16 AM.

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