Mystery of the Missing Wartime Long Branch Snipers

[stencollector]

I recall seeing one of the 74L 32TP scopes with its rings at an ORA shoot at Base Borden. This was from one of the scrapped Netherlands rifles.
It has been a long time since the CF sold any weapons off as surplus. Any No. 4Ts that were held in stores have likely been scrapped.
I do recall that there were 3 LB 4Ts w/32TP scopes that were made available for issue to the Canadian Rangers. As far as I know they went to the Yukon. This would have been in the late '80s, early '90s, just do not recall exactly when.

Back in the mid 90s, a retired weapons tech who lived in the area related to me that he had been tasked with tearing down sniper rifles back in the 60s while working at 202 depot. The rifles were still in their chests, but the scopes had all been removed by that point. One still had the scope, which he reported to his Sgt. The Sgt merely said: "there are no scopes". So he retained the scope and brackets (I can't remember if it was a 69 or a 32TP) and built up a sniper using an unserialised receiver to which he added his SIN number as a serial. I had seen that rifle with his son.

So the answer to some of the missing Canadian rifles could be as simple as they were destroyed by the CF upon disposal.

There were a couple languishing in the depots around the year 2000. I talked with the retired Life Cycle Manager, who made the decision to give them to the Rangers to use rather than see them destroyed. They could have been put up for distribution to CF museums, and if they survive their time with the Rangers, may eventually be.

Here is a shot of a serial number from one of two chests I found at a surplus yard about a decade back. The owner of the yard could not recall when he got them, and they were mixed in with dozens of regular Cno7 chests. Most likely that rifle ended up in the smelter.

[Seaspriter]

Here is a shot of a serial number from one of two chests I found at a surplus yard about a decade back.

Thanks StenCollector,

The Sherlock Holmes in me thinks there are a lot of clues on this chest that might tell us something. It's obviously been repainted at least once, maybe twice, by the military.

The serial number is important. It tells us that this serial block probably went from 80L 8001 - 80L8099. From my data analysis, this actually would have been part of the 1946 Post War issuance (Serial Numbers ~80L 8084 - 80L 8099, followed along by the 91L 8xxx block.)

Can you tell from the box if this Sniper made its way to the UK, or did it stay with Canadian Forces? Can you tell us anything more from the markings about the evolution/devolution of this weapon?

Empty Sniper Boxes reveal a part of the mystery. How safe would it be to conclude that if a Sniper was separated from it's carrying case it had either been destined for scrap or prepared for sale outside the military? What % of 100% authentic/original (not restored) Snipers have been found that were separated from their boxes?

The Canadian Rangers seem to be another place where a few existing Snipers may be lurking, either in a storeroom or in the field -- probably pretty beaten up.

Robert

[tiriaq]

From what I saw of how No. 4s were used by the Rangers where I lived, they would have been used up long ago. The Ts I mentioned were supposed to go to Rangers in the Eastern Arctic; the Warrant knew what they were, and what would happen to them, so they were routed to Yukon.
I'm pretty sure this was before 2000.

[stencollector]

There was no indication that either of the two chests that I picked up that day went out of Canada. One of the chests had markings that indicated it went to Dundurn Saskatchewan. The NSN (1005-21-xxx-xxxx) on this chest indicates it was marked in Canadian service after approx 1963 when Canada adopted the NATO system (which was an adaptation of the US Federal Stock Numbers) of stock numbers.



Tiriaq: I'll likely see my source for the information on the last of the snipers while I am at the Calgary Easter show. I'll try and get a firm timeline for when the last couple 4Ts were sent to the rangers. I think it was a few years after Y2K, but I'll confirm.

[Seaforth72]

When I went to see the movie AMERICAN SNIPER in the theatre, the chap sitting beside me turned out to also be ex-military. He told me that when they were cleaning up buildings during an inventory at Workpoint Barracks (Victoria, BC, Canada) they found six (as I recall) Lee-Enfield sniper rifles (maker not specified, but I suspect they would have been Long Branch) in chests "in a bunker". He headed up the training for the sniper shooting team for his battalion at that time. There was a competition in Canadian Forces Base Wainwright (Alberta) coming up. The standard rifle was as I recall the FNC1A1 (with scope) in 7.62 NATO. His team (3PPCLI or possibly their earlier identity of 2QOR) showed up with the Lee-Enfields and won. The other teams complained, but the Lee-Enfields were shown to be still "on issue" so their complaint was dismissed. Sadly I do not know what happened to the rifles after that.

I was told by an advanced early collector that he spotted a Canadian Long Branch serial number on a No. 15 chest among some pallet loads of surplus sniper equipments in a Canadian surplus place's back room. He knew the owner well and asked him to set aside any that had the "L" in the serial nunber. He expected only a couple. When he returned, he found a whole load of them set aside and felt compelled to buy them all as he had asked for them! This was probably in the late 1960s when they sold for under $100 per set. These are eventually dispersed to other collectors.

Sadly, unlike the USA with its Director of Civilian Marksmanship (DCM) and later CIvilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) Canada reportedly now destroys ex-military small arms. The FNs were reportedly destroyed except for a few retained for museums. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) classified all of them, including the semi-auto majority, as "Prohibited". The INGLIS 9mm pistols are slated for destruction. The only exception may be the No. 4 MK.I* rifles ( and possibly some EAL rifles) which the government government was talking about selling to the Canadian Rangers who held these in issue.

[stencollector]

Sadly, unlike the USA with its Director of Civilian Marksmanship (DCM) and later CIvilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) Canada reportedly now destroys ex-military small arms. The FNs were reportedly destroyed except for a few retained for museums. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) classified all of them, including the semi-auto majority, as "Prohibited". The INGLIS 9mm pistols are slated for destruction. The only exception may be the No. 4 MK.I* rifles ( and possibly some EAL rifles) which the government government was talking about selling to the Canadian Rangers who held these in issue.

Wandering a little off topic, but the previous conservative government had shown a glimmer of hope when they announced that they were going to make the Inglis Browning Hi-power available to the collectors market upon disposal. There are still thousands of them in the depot still resplendent with their lend lease decals new in the grease. However, under the new government, I would not hold my breath.....rather I will be happy if I still have what I have in 4 years.

With the turtle's pace that the Canadian Military is moving to replace the hipower, we may well be back to a Conservative government by the time the Inglis is replaced.

As to the Enfields that are in stock for the Rangers, a large portion of them are either the Irish contract no4mk2, or ex-India rifles of various manufacture. The no4mk1* may no longer be the standard, although is is officially. As near as I can see, the supply system does not differentiate between the various models in service, nor specifically support the no4mk2.

I have a friend who works in a HQ for the Ranger program. Whenever the Enfields are removed from service in their area of responsibility, the backloaded rifles go through them first for stripping before being turned back in to the system. The parts are used to support the other rifles still in service.

[Seaspriter]

Thanks StenCollector. Hope Justin Trudeau gets sidetracked on other issues and the Englis HiPowers just sit in the warehouse for a while -- great pistols with a great heritage and story of how they came to Canada when Germany overran Belgium.

I have a friend who works in a HQ for the Ranger program

The Canadian Rangers must have an inventory control system. Could you request from your friend to see how many LB Snipers might be listed on Inventory?
Thanks

[Vincent]

Interesting picture. My son-in-law has one of those chests. Do you know why they were painted that color?

[Seaspriter]

My son-in-law has one of those chests

Thanks Vincent. Can you get a picture of his? The serial number is important because it tells us how to date the gun, as there is a very incomplete data base of serial numbers. Also, can you query him about where he got the chest? (that might give us more clues)

To All: As you can easily surmise by this thread, every little fragment of data or seemingly insignificant anecdotal story eventually puts together the emerging whole story and give us leads to more evidence and clarity. I am confident, with all your collective insights, we will build a reasonably clear picture of what happened to the missing Long Branch Snipers -- evidently they were cast in dozens of directions, many were lost or destroyed, some were sold and sitting in closets, and others are lovingly restored and preserved by collectors. And possibly there are still 200 to be found in a warehouse (the 71L 001-200 serial number range that seems to be completely missing and unaccounted for)

Thanks to everyone for contributing to solving the mystery!

[Seaforth72]

The possibility of 200 sniper rifles serial numbers 71L0001 to 71L0200 (note the correct 4-digits after the L) sitting in a warehouse is extremely slim, especially after 70 years. Remember that the sniper rifles were shipped in individual Small Arms Chests No. 15. It would be a rare storesman indeed, one with Obsessive Compulsive Disease (OCD) to storethem all in numerical order. Other than finding original records, the next best thing is to find a rifle within that SN range and whether it was ever a sniper or not should answer that question, at least partially.

Militaries do not usually bother to issue weapons in sequential order, though a sequential pair could end up going out together by chance. If an indent comes in for 50 rifles for example, the stores personnel will simply take the nearest 50, record the SNs and ship them off.

When the firearms are still brand new unissued, as received from the manufacturer and inspectors,, they may be in numerical sequence of SN. For example, Allan Kerr of MilArm in Edmonton, Alberta has a small arms chest with about a dozen new old stock Long Branch No. 4 MK. I* rifles, still in serial number sequence. The chest was sent by Canada to Belgium as NATO aid, likely in the 1950s, but the rifles remained unused. Perhaps the most interesting thing is that these factory NOS rifles have some mismatched rifle wood shades. It is proof that when manufacturing rifles during the war that function was of primary importance and that cosmetics were secondary. Those rifles are not for sale.

A point of clarification on the Inglis 9mm pistols as those not familiar with the details might misunderstand seasprinter's comments above. The design came from Belgium, but the production was by Inglis in Canada. As well, they were not produced until late 1944 and thus, like the No. 32 MK. III scopes, were not used on D-Day as many people think. The Inglis pistols, were on issue to the British and Canadian airborne troops by the time of Operation Varsity in March 1945.