M1 Carbine wasn't used in front line battle?

[imntxs554]

The subject pretty much shows the intent.

And there it is ... Bingo was his Name-O.

[CINDERS]

On the food side - One thing I did find when we were training in the cadets and issued Anzac biscuits in ration packs they were near on impossible to eat but made great fire lighters, when we had our mock wars and issued blanks some of the guys got to putting a blank in the chamber and gravel down the bore of the Mk III's we had for a sorta shotgun how some of us were not injured by this folly I do not know. I guess my proudest moment was gaining my crossed rifles with the Mk III it was sanctioned by the regular Army and we shot the same course of fire as the regular Army it was the first year it had been allowed and I was the only one from my cadet unit to attain the score, I have 1 set framed with the picture of them being presented to me and another set sewn onto my shooting jacket that was in 1972.

I think from memory needed 75/100 course of fire was 10 rounds prone 300yds stand up load 10 cycle bolt safety on run in extended line with rifle at high port to 200yds 5 rounds/sitting 3 rounds/prone safety on stand up run to 100 2/standing at 10" disc I managed 75 and with our range 303's I probably snagged one that was a reasonable shooter as we only had 10 green Mk III's in the Q Store all the others were yellows and reds @ 50 of them all up oh and the 3" mortar.

[bczandm]

I did some searching online for photos and there were quite a few of Paratroopers...not exactly non combat positions!

If I am not mistaken the paratroopers used folding stock M1 Carbines exclusively.

[BrianQ]

You are mistaken. Airborne units used M1A1 and M1 carbines and units besides the Airborne ones were also equipped with some M1A1s.

[firstflabn]

Beyond their entertainment value, photos serve as research for the lazy. Like any anecdote, all they can reliably do is to disprove a claim that something never happened or perhaps to show the first appearance of some detail. If you found an old Phoenix newspaper and it showed it had rained an inch in the area the day before, that wouldn't lead to a conclusion that it rained a lot thereabouts (that's pretty weak, even on an internet forum).

My guess is that the laughably uninformed Garry James claim was the result of photo "research" (and precious little else).

Having already addressed the cooks and clerks error, let's keep the discussion to small arms requirements in the infantry regiment and its components. That's not the whole story, but it's about as "up front' as it gets in WWII. James mentioned Linemen and MG and Mortar Gunners having carbines.

Lineman: in a 1944 infantry regiment, there were 30 GIs with 'Lineman' in their MOS. 15 in regimental HQ co and 5 in each of the three infantry battalions' HQ cos. Authorized personal weapons: 0 Carbines; 30 Garands. Hmmm, looks like James whiffed on this one.

Machine Gunners and Mortarmen: in a 1944 infantry regiment, all MGs and mortars were in the rifle and HW cos. There were 192 gunners and assistants with 258 ammo bearers. All of the gunners had pistols, all of the ammo bearers had carbines. No way to know if James was aware of how a weapons section was organized, but since he described gunners as "...soldiers who would normally not be issued a handgun," it's doubtful. Dating back to WWI, MG and mortar crews had carried only pistols, but it's a virtual certainty that James was unaware of it. So, full size rifles could not possibly have been an impediment to gunners in pre-carbine days because they were not provided. As a point of reference, the Oct 40 infantry battalion T/O had 313 pistols. The next one, Apr 42, the first to include the carbine, had only 60 pistols - an 80% drop. Without looking at all the gory details, that should be enough to justify use of the term 'replace' to describe the carbine's relationship to the pistol.

One last poke and I'll put my stick down. Would the following MOS for EMs assigned to a regimental HQ Co be considered support troops? A regimental HQ was near the front, but my impression is that it would normally only be involved in combat in an emergency. The number in parentheses is the number of personnel:

Bugler (1)
Code Clerk (4)
Light Truck Driver (9)
Radio Operator (18)
Switchboard Operator (4)
Orderly (2)
Radio Repairman (1)

Anyone want to take a stab at who was issued what weapon? A breakdown by percentage for the entire group perhaps?

[Sentryduty]

The carbine is also unique in that it continues to foster spirited forum discussion decades after the last one was withdrawn from service.

[Seaspriter]

Anyone want to take a stab at who was issued what weapon?

So, if so few men were using the M1 Carbine, how is it that over 6 million were produced? Who got them? How did Audie Murphy get his? How did all those photographs of M1 Carbines come into existence? Why did the Army and the Marine Corps send so many to arsenals to be refurbished for the next war (Korea)? Something's missing.
RIFLE PLATOON AND SQUAD IN OFFENSIVE COMBAT, Training Bulletin NO. GT-20, Issued March 15, 1943, The Infantry School, Fort Benning, Ga doesn't even acknowledge the existence of the Carbine. It calls for a Squad to be armed with 10 M1 Rifles, 1 BAR, and one M1903 with bayonet (presumably this was the rifle grenadier with grenade launcher). So, obviously the 6 million Carbines must have been used by a "Phantom Army" -- much like Patton's 3rd Army in the UK with balloon tanks. Audie Murphy must have obtained his Carbine through clandestine channels. And all those 1940s movies I watch on TCM showing squads carrying M1 Rifles, M1 Carbines, Tommy Guns, and M3 Grease Guns must have been the result of the wild imaginations of writers and directors. And the none of the authors of books and articles should be believed. This is getting really interesting.

[USGI]

Something's missing.

Go back and read post #25 again - the answer is in there if you read carefully and analyze the information being presented. - Bob

[firstflabn]

So, if so few men were using the M1 Carbine, how is it that over 6 million were produced? Who got them?
...
And all those 1940s movies I watch on TCM showing squads carrying M1 Rifles, M1 Carbines, Tommy Guns, and M3 Grease Guns must have been the result of the wild imaginations of writers and directors. And the none of the authors of books and articles should be believed. This is getting really interesting.

You inferred something I did not imply. My saying there is widespread misunderstanding of who got what, and giving some examples where Garands, not carbines, were assigned to support troops, is not saying anything about where carbines were assigned. Also, you might notice that the examples I gave concerned the U.S. Army alone, so your 6 million figure is a little high.

You might want to take a glance at the first few pages of WBII to begin your education. LR excerpts Shelby Stanton's book in providing carbine totals for a dozen or two combat and combat support units. It only lists carbine totals, not which MOS got them, but gotta start somewhere!

Now I realize that in your world, Larry Ruth may not be a source with the heft of Wikipedia or Garry "Clerks and Cooks" James - or even Turner Classic Movie Channel, but take a look anyway.

To supplement my sage advice about avoiding drawing conclusions from photos, here's another tip: use secondary sources with caution. It's not always possible to get at the primary source, but if a secondary source fails to at least make a nod in the direction of a primary source, don't bet the farm on its accuracy (See: Garry "Machine Gunner" James). You might notice that I referred to my collection of T/O&Es (do you know what that abbreviation stands for?). That makes me a secondary source, but I described a primary source - which is, in fact, the fundamental document in understanding weapons assignments. See how that works?

[Seaspriter]

I guess my feeble mind is far too wrapped in the big picture to see the details. During WWII, (if we are to believe the National Archives) the Army and Marines together in 1945 held a force of:
8,742,638 officers and enlisted men.

Let's compare that to Rifle Production 1942-45:
Total M1 Rifles produced during the war: 4,040,802
Total M1 Carbines produced during the war: 6,117,827
Total of Wartime Production of M1s (Rifles & Carbines) = 10,158,629

Guess both the Army and Marine Generals must have gotten carried away ordering Carbines at a rate 50% higher than Rifles during the war (could they have made such a massive blunder ordering 2 million more carbines than rifles -- or perhaps there was a compelling rationale).

The answer becomes more evident in the Marine Table of Organization and Equipment for 1944 (which was updated about every year as battlefield tactics continued to evolve).
see http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/OOB/Regt-TOE-F/ind
which states:
"The Rifle Platoon: A a rifle platoon is made up of one officer and forty-five men, armed with nine automatic rifles, five Carbines, and thirty-two M1 Rifles." [at this point of organization & equipment, M1 rifles outnumber carbines by nearly 2 to 1]

But reading further, the answer begins to evolve:

The Light Machine Gun Section
A light machine gun squad consists of a corporal, squad leader, and seven privates, two of whom man the light machine gun, while the other five supply ammunition. Each of these men carries a Carbine, but the basic weapon of the squad is the 30-caliber Browning machine gun, M1919A4.

The 60mm Mortar Section
The 60mm mortar section consists of:
Section leaders--a lieutenant and a sergeant.
Three mortar squads of six men each. Each mortar squad carries one 60mm mortar. The men are armed individually with Carbines.

The Rifle Company
The rifle company consists of:
- Company headquarters (including headquarters section and the 60mm mortar section).
- Machine gun platoon.
- Three rifle platoons.
Thus the company as a whole is composed of two hundred forty-seven men and seven officers. Its weapons include three 60mm mortars, three AT rocket launchers (the bazooka--carried in company headquarters section), six light machine guns (with six heavy machine guns carried in reserve), twenty-seven automatic rifles, 123 M1 Rifles and 97 Carbines. [at this point of organization and equipment, rifles outnumber carbines 56% to 44%]

The Infantry Battalion
The Marine infantry battalion consists of:
- Headquarters company.
- Three rifle companies.
The battalion is composed of 35 marine officers and 877 marines, plus 42 medical people. Its fire power is tremendous, with a variety of weapons including 27 flame throwers, 9 bazookas, 4 81mm and 13 60mm mortars, 18 heavy and 18 light machine guns, 81 automatic rifles, 424 M1 Rifles, and 449 Carbines. [at this point of organization and equipment, carbines outnumber rifles 51% to 49%]

FWIW, the complement for a Marine Corps Regiment in 1944 includes:
Carbine, .30-caliber, M1.....1659
Rifle, .30-caliber, M1..........1422
Rifle, .30-caliber, BAR..........243
Shotgun, 12-gauge..............100

The complement for a Marine Corps Division in 1944 includes:
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC...SMC-III-F.html
MAJOR WEAPONS -MARINE DIVISION
Carbine, .30 cal., M-1.........10,953
Rifle, .30 cal., M-1.............. 5,436
Rifle, Browning, automatic.....853
Shotgun, 12 gauge................306
Gun, Machine:
.30 cal..................................464
.50 cal., M2..........................161
Gun, submachine, .45 cal.......49
Pistol, .45 cal.......................399

[plus mortars, howitzers, etc.]
At the Divisional Level, M1 Carbines outnumbered M1 Rifles 2 to 1.
(I will let others far more knowledgeable than I to state why the Divisional proportion of Carbines to Rifles was so much higher than the Regimental proportion -- my opinion would be sheer speculation -- I like the facts, the evidence, and the data to support conclusions).

Which takes us full circle to the original proposition.