How do you clean tarnished military cartridges ??

[DocAV]

Dutch (KNIL) East Indies Military reloads. Given where they came from, Primers are probably dead by now. Primer is .199" (5mm) Roth Patent (Flash Hole thru anvil).

The Flash hole is much smaller than a normal Boxer Flash hole, but can be used as a guide to converting these cases to Boxer Primers. Simply enlarge Pocket with a #4 drill (.209)
This will eliminate most of the anvil as well. Open up Flash hole with 1/16th" drill, to clear a normal large Boxer decapping Pin.
It may be necessary to "Clean up" the pocket with a Primer Pocket reamer.

Anneal these cases...they are "OLD"...and you can then reload them several times.

I have done several 100s of these shells, first reloading with RWS#5005 (.199") Berdan primers, then as these have been getting scarce (Down-under) I have turned to "converting " to Boxer. For this work it is essential to have a mini-Lathe.

Doc AV

[pastprime]

Dutch (KNIL) East Indies Military reloads. Given where they came from, Primers are probably dead by now. Primer is .199" (5mm) Roth Patent (Flash Hole thru anvil).

The Flash hole is much smaller than a normal Boxer Flash hole, but can be used as a guide to converting these cases to Boxer Primers. Simply enlarge Pocket with a #4 drill (.209)
This will eliminate most of the anvil as well. Open up Flash hole with 1/16th" drill, to clear a normal large Boxer decapping Pin.
It may be necessary to "Clean up" the pocket with a Primer Pocket reamer.

Anneal these cases...they are "OLD"...and you can then reload them several times.

I have done several 100s of these shells, first reloading with RWS#5005 (.199") Berdan primers, then as these have been getting scarce (Down-under) I have turned to "converting " to Boxer. For this work it is essential to have a mini-Lathe.

Doc AV

Thanks for all of this information. Unfortunately, I don't have a mini lathe and really can't justify one just for this project; at least not yet....

I've read a post or two about reforming .303 British brass for this caliber which looks like something I could handle. Also, I received 20 rounds made from reformed/reloaded 30-40 Krag brass with the rifle. Which would be the best to work with the .303 or 30-40 if I definitely decide to reload for this caliber??

Hank

[Bruce_in_Oz]

.303 brass is a bit shorter than .30-40; less trimming.

Watch the neck thickness after running through the 6.5 die; you MAY need to neck ream to avoid embarrassing "over-pressures" or basic failure to chamber. Play around with DUMMY loads before going nuts and expending primers and powder.

The 6.5 x 53R round is, more or less, a rimmed version of the famous 6.5 x 54 Mannlicher Schoenauer, so, with a good barrel, it should be a nice performer with appropriate loads. Several of the early 20th Century gun-makers in Britain turned out some very nice Lee-Enfield sporters in this cartridge. Modern .264" bullets in the 130 - 140gn range should do nicely. See your favourite local loading manual for more details.

The catch is that the Dutch / Romanian rifles require a special loading clip to work, in a similar fashion to the Carcano. These turn up at gun shows, which is where a collector mate of mine found a few a while back. Unless you plan on using the old girl to eradicate a large population of feral pigs or similar, half a dozen clips will keep you going for a LONG time.

[DocAV]

Further to Bruce in Oz (Brisbane,) we make cases for 6,5x53R from .303 When we can get
them ( all major Brands are "dried up" here...Win, Rem, and Prvi...only S&B available and they are problematic on Primer Pocket specs...too shallow.

Also, it is necessary to first set the shoulder back, with either a .308 die, or a 7mm-08 die, to prevent "folding" of the case; then FLS with the 6,5x53R die (RCBS or CH4D), Followed by trim and anneal.

With Commercial cases, there is no need to ream the necks as the brass is already thin for the .303; but if using HXP or DIZ 40s brass, then a neck ream MAY be required, if your 6,5 rifle is an "English Make" ( Steyr Md93 action and Barrel reamed for "sporting use"). For ex Dutch or Romanian Military rifles, the chambers are "sloppier" and can adjust to thicker necked brass made from Military .303 (I used to use Berdan primed Aussie cases, back in the 60s and70s with my KNIL Carbine. ).

The Dutch did both reloads (Marked with an "X" or an "o") as well as Buying in cases, such as FN22, and then Loading them up some time Later...hence the "Double dating".

A Lot of Loading and Reloading was done at Surabaja in Java (KNIL) and I suspect your Multi dated ammo is from Indonesia (They sold a lot back in the 70s...I have a complete sealed tin,(500 rounds) with Dutch stencil on one side, and Japanese stencil on the other.

The Japanese used a lot of the KNIL carbines in New Guinea and the Solomons, for Auxillary troops (Artillery, etc). They also used the Natty little Madsen KNIL LMG...very short barrel, curved Banana shaped mag. More like a light machine rifle.

Doc AV
Brisbane.

BY the way, the 6,5x53R (Md92/93 and M95) is actually a copy of the Rimmed 6,5x52 Carcano used in the initial 1890 Italian rifle testing (both a rimmed and a rimless case were tested); Italy settled on the rimless case and the M88 style of Parallel packet clip ( even though they had to pay some royalties to Mannlicher!). Mannlicher then took the Rimmed case, and used it in his Romanian Md92 rifle, found it was successful (he developed the symmetrical Curved clip for rimmed cases; and the Romanians bought it in both the 92 and the improved 93 version. When the Greeks also liked the idea of a 6,5 cartridge, along with Otto Schoenauer, Mannlicher developed the Rimless 6,5x54 MS cartridge in 1900...first batch of rifles were tested by Portugal ( who were staunch Steyr Customers, even having bought Md93 (Mo.96) Cavalry carbines in 6,5x53R)...But the Portuguese were swayed by Vergueiro and DWM, which produced a rifle which was a combination of Mauser, Commission and Vergueiro features, the Espingarda M1904, in a heftier cartridge, the 6,5x58 P. ( a "Mauser" sized cartridge.)

The Trial M1900 6,5x54 rifles were returned to Steyr, and formed part of the first M1903 Batch to Greece; the Carbine version was found to be so Manageable, that Steyr followed the British lead of using Steyr actions for "Deerstalker" Rifles, and made their own "Hunting Carbine," for Mountain/alpine Deer and Goat hunting: the Famous M1903 MS Sporting rifle, with the classic spoon handle bolt, and the full wood ("Mannlicher' ) Sporting stock. Sadly, the Baron died in 1904, and didn't live to see the world wide success of his designs. The British, not to be outdone, also made "English style" Mannlicher Schoenauer Carbines, with great success in the Anglo world ( .256 Mannlicher Rimless).

Doc AV

[no4mk1t]

Bought some of the Grade B Greek 303 from CTD last year and had a couple of boxes that were tarnished enough to be unsightly. a fellow mod on another forum bought some as well and he also had some that were tarnished. A quick and easy way to remove the tarnish can be accomplished with a little Lemishine and water in 5 minutes time. This only removes tarnish, it will not make the brass shiny bright nor will it remove any corrosion.
Arsenal loaded military ammo is typically waterproofed by a lacquer sealer around the primer, and an asphaltic sealer in the case neck. If these Dutch rounds are indeed reloads, they probably aren't waterproof, but one could seal the primer with the wife's nail polish, and stand them in a pan of water that does not submerged the case mouth.

C&P from the other forum this is posted in...

Dissolve 2 TBL Lemishine in a container of water. I used a 4 Cup Pyrex pitcher, but something large enough to hold one box (48) rounds of ammo.

Set a timer for 4 minutes. By the time you get them out and dried, they will have been wet for 5 minutes. If you leave them in too long, they will turn pink. Doesn't hurt anything, but someone may give you a rainbow hat at the range.

Place the 48 rounds in the container and start the timer. When the timer goes off, remove the ammo and thoroughly towel dry.

You will notice the necks have slightly pink tint. This was what they originally looked like after the factory annealing. They then darken over time.

Very important:
Lay the ammo out to air dry at least overnight. If it is the least bit damp and you box it back up and seal it up in an ammo can, it will at the very least re tarnish worse than before.

This process will not leave the brass shiny bright, it will only remove the tarnish.

You fellas than don't use the SS pins can also use this method to pre-clean grungy range brass before it goes in your tumbler.

These rounds were used to determine immersion time. You can see they can stand to be left in a little longer.


These were left in for 5 minutes.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

Just be a little careful with "chemical' cleaning systems.

The "pink" you see is essentially metallic copper, the zinc in the original brass alloy being "dissolved" / reacted away by the cleaning process.

Experiment with "timing" to minimize chemical "alteration" of your brass.

Some years ago I was doing a big batch of 7.62 NATO cases in "the brew of the day". Got waylaid by something or other and got back to them a couple of days later.

Most were "sort of" clean-looking, but at the bottom of the tub I started finding nasty looking "stubs" of cases. These turned out to be the last remains of STEEL cases (probably Bulgarian? or Chinese copper-washed) that had been mixed up in the batch.

The cleaning "brew" that merely took the "brown" off brass, had effectively eaten them.

[Peter Laidler]

Reloading isn't my scene, being brought up in the '.....if the queen doesn't supply it, I don't shoot it.....' era of soldiering. I have to say that I have the greatest admiration for all of you ammo and reloading fiends for the hoops that you jump through to keep these old girls on the firing point. It's all quite enlightening to me!

Additionally, Armourers were always taught very early on in their careers/training that ammunition techs don't deal with small arms and you don't not ever deal with ammo!

Very interesting thread........

[bombdoc]

The UK approved method of removing light corrosion on ammunition was to use Scotchbrite.. Provided the corrosion was only on the surface and there was no sign of pitting etc you are usually ok to go...

[Peter Laidler]

Scotchbrite......... The bane of the REME! I've seen them set about cleaning anything that could possibly be cleaned or polished with the stuff. Not only gas parts but phosphated rifle parts, barrels, bores, SUSAT lenses, No2 binocular lenses, telescope lenses, compasses rubbed down to brass........ And who tells them to keep the chocolate mars bars and yorkie bars in their pouches with their ammo, compasses, binos etc etc. Soft melted chocolate bars squeezed everywhere was another nightmare. Then cleaned out with scotchbrite!

[Sentryduty]

Soft melted chocolate bars squeezed everywhere was another nightmare.

Had a platoon commander like that, Snickers and Mars bars, he'd dip a hand in one of the various pouches of his kit, withdraw a gooey mess, deftly shed the wrapper and pop an entire bar in his mouth, chewing the whole time like a horse with a mouth full of taffy.

It really bolstered the fighting spirit on a patrol...