Looking for a No4 Mk1 T

[Seaforth72]

One has to be very, very careful with Stevens-Savage "snipers". Most Stevens-Savage No, 4 rifles with some sniper features seem to be of the (T. LESS TELESCOPE) variety. There are thought to have been about 3,000 partly converted by Holland and Holland, and these have the sniper cheek rest, S51 Holland and Holland mark and scope pads installed etc. They never had scopes assigned, so do not have the "T" Mark, scope SN or scope and bracket. The serial numbers for (T) and for (T. LESS TELESCOPE) are intermingled. Sadly it is easier to fake one of these as much of the work is authentic.

Members here on this forum are happy to help verify No. 4 (T) but many photos are advisable especially for any markings or sniper features. Buyer beware. Do your homework!

[Lee Enfield]

One has to be very, very careful with Stevens-Savage "snipers". Most Stevens-Savage No, 4 rifles with some sniper features seem to be of the (T. LESS TELESCOPE) variety. There are thought to have been about 3,000 partly converted by Holland and Holland, and these have the sniper cheek rest, S51 Holland and Holland mark and scope pads installed etc. They never had scopes assigned, so do not have the "T" Mark, scope SN or scope and bracket. The serial numbers for (T) and for (T. LESS TELESCOPE) are intermingled. Sadly it is easier to fake one of these as much of the work is authentic.

Members here on this forum are happy to help verify No. 4 (T) but many photos are advisable especially for any markings or sniper features. Buyer beware. Do your homework!

I'm going to have to argue regarding your interpretation of a "sniper rifle" and a rifle with "sniper features".

Your statement is that a rifle which has never been fitted with a scope is inferior to a rifle which has lost it's scope in it's 70+ years of travels. This interpretation is completely un-true.

Whether on not a scope has been fitted makes NO difference to the rifle, as ALL of the fitting is on the rings. Therefore a "less scope" rifle is completely the same as a rifle which has lost it's scope, in fact I have seen transit cases with "Less Telescope" barred out (well painted over in this case), and others which have it, but the number matching rifle inside has a telescope number stamped on the butt stock.

These rifles (No4T) are NOT an SVT40 with a simple notch FILED in the receiver to lock a lock pin in a scope mount. Somehow those are "sniping rifles", while a No4 rifle which was stripped to components, milled, line bored, had scope mounting brackets attached and totally rebuilt (at Holland and Holland no less) is not...

Also I have to point out again that the "classical" markings which H&H used on No4(T) rifles evolved over the production period, and the "classical" markings really are only found on 1944 & 1945 & 1946 converted rifles.

And also when Army Council Instructions were issued which state that some rifles were issued without the "T" marking on the receiver and that they should be so marked when found... I don't think the "T" marking is an infallible indicator...

[IanS]

Thanks to all for the helpful information. I'm currently waiting to hear from the owner so that I can take appropriate photos. Once I have these I'll post them, just hope I don't miss anything. Ian

[Roger Payne]

The highest prefix I've ever seen on a Savage rifle is 15C - never seen a 17C but it's not so far away, so is feasible. And certainly both Savage Mk1 & Mk1* No 4 (T) rifles were scoped up. There were about 6 in the batch I bought in the 1990's; both Mk1 & 1* rifles. There were five Mk1*'s IIRC & ALL bore scope serial numbers on the wrist of the butt, & all of those were lower range serial numbers consistent with Mk1 scopes. Additionally, the markings had clearly been there a long time & were not recent additions.

I agree that many of the Savage rifles (particularly 1* T's), seen on the surplus market are the 'less scope' variety, & this probably reflects their being sold off years ago into same US surplus market (being less 'useful' to the military than a complete scoped up equipment) - where they still regularly reappear for sale.

[IanS]

Hi Roger, thanks for the information. I'm just waiting to firm up a date to take the necessary photos, might be this Sunday (24th Jly).

[MJ1]

I don't get a feeling for what the original poster is setting as his goal. Just wants a shooter or does he want to invest in a safe queen display rifle. In my small collection I have a 12C and 13C that are a delight to shoot and and preform as well or better than some others. Both are 1942 dated and properly zeroed are accurate well into 600 yards my longest local range. One other small point that may be important is the price of these scope-less rifles has skyrocketed . I watched a 14C go past $2600 at auction this week. That they shoot so well is important to me but then I am not an expert on anything.

Good luck

[IanS]

Hi MJ1, thanks for the feedback. I would prefer to have a totally original T if that's possible and shoot it. If it's a good investment too, even better. The one that I'm going to post photos of, I've seen, but I've only had a cursory look. I thought the condition was very good and following Roger's comments, I've taken the next step.
I looked on the Devizes website as suggested and was amazed at some of the asking prices, especially the Longbranch Mk1*. A good investment?
Ian.

[MJ1]

Shop wisely and listen to the advice from the gentlemen here.

Again good luck.

[IanS]

Sure will. Nice photograph by the way.
Ian.

[IanS]

Well, I've taken some photos and I have to say the conditions weren't perfect, I hope they are good enough. The wood on this rifle is the best I've seen on a N04 Mk1. There are no stamps on the wood except for one on the lower fore end and it seems to have been interfered with. There is also what appears to be a very faint "O" marking on the underside of the stock/butt forward of the cheek piece. I wasn't able to establish the number of grooves in the barrel. I think I know what the feedback's going to be, not good. I'm sure some of the observations will be interesting.