Mint 2nd Series Kokura Type 38 Carbine [Photo heavy]

[lthilsdorf]

No crazy story with this new rifle, but I happened to go to a local gun show and saw this carbine sitting on the racks with several other Type 38 rifles. Looked mint, so I took a closer look. Numbers seemed to match and the stock looks like it has never been messed with. Price seemed OK at $440, especially with other Type 38 carbines at the show starting at $599 and in far worse condition. The guy selling it said he had owned it for as long as he can remember, but was just reducing his collection. He didn't want to lower it and said he was bringing it to the big Syracuse show next weekend anyway. I figured there are fewer and fewer of these rifles in this condition and I might as well buy them while I can.

This rifle has a ground mum and missing dust cover, but everything else seems correct. The front barrel band refuses to come loose, so I can't take it apart to see the assembly number or the trigger. However, the extractor and bolt release are all marked "912". Strangely enough the rear sight is marked "746" while the rifle's serial number ends in"476". Not sure if this is an error or indicative of a rework. Rifle seems to be in too nice of a shape not to have been reworked. I'm not sure if the cartouches on the stock are correct for the rifle itself, so if someone would like to chime in that would be great. Firing pin has no number and the whole bolt assembly is filled with grease on the inside.

Any other thoughts? Maybe I paid too much of a premium but the majority of Type 38 carbines I see seem to have rode hard and put away wet. Having the mum is nice, but I don't think it adds that much of a premium. It was funny but I saw 4 carbines at this show and one sporterized Type 44, which is the most I've seen at a show in NY in years.

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[HOOKED ON HISTORY]

Shame about the Mum. Not certain what the current market price range on carbines is but I think I would have gone $440 with the condition missing Mum not withstanding. I just do not see many carbines in any condition and I do not have one.

[Aragorn243]

The mum makes the rifle unfortunately, not suggesting you overpaid, the condition is excellent other than that.

As for the other numbers. Early Japanese rifles used an assembly number, not the serial number to match parts. I don't think this changed until mid Type 99 rifles. So that being said, the rifle might be all matching despite the different numbers. If the screws are staked which they may very well be on one in this condition, possibly no way to tell if it is all matching or not. Don't unstake the screws.

[lthilsdorf]

Before I started really getting into these Japanese rifles I skipped over ones without a mum at gunshows. Kills me to think what I missed. I personally don't feel like paying a premium on it, but I see why some people would. If anything it's a good bargaining tool with people who think the mum is what makes or breaks a rifle. Just my opinion though!

And I was under the impression that only Type 99's had staked screws. Of the 3 Type 38 variations I have (two regular carbines and a Type 44) none of them have staked screws. I haven't fully disassembled this one because I can't for the life of me get the bayonet band off.

[Aragorn243]

The mum is what makes or breaks the rifle. In the collecting world there are certain standards that have to be recognized. With all military rifles, matching numbers is the first. With Japanese rifles, there is the addition of a complete unaltered mum. There are price guides out there for rifles and the one I use, Peterson's calls for a 25%-50% deduction for a ground mum. Variance depending on the rarity, condition, and matching numbers potential of the rifle. The better everything else is, the lower the deduction but still a 25% deduction is significant. Anytime something has been removed from a rifle, it hurts its value. Argentine and Spanish crests for example. K98's reworked by Yugoslavia. They can never achieve what an unaltered rifle is worth.

Did you pay too much? I can't answer that, it is a beautiful rifle. Based on condition and today's market, you probably did OK. But if it had the mum, it would have been worth quite a bit more.

[henry r]

a little off topic, but have people started "re-installing" mums too up the value of rifles?

[browningautorifle]

but have people started "re-installing" mums

Now that's something I haven't seen. I'd think that would be inordinately difficult...virtually impossible to blow by anyone.

[Aragorn243]

In my limited examination of Japanese rifles, I've never seen one restamped. I also agree it would be extremely difficult to do if not impossible for anyone outside of a machine shop of some sort. As they are heavily struck, anyone could also measure the diameter of the receiver to see if it was restamped. And finally, I don't think Mitchells ever got involved with Japanese rifles.

[HOOKED ON HISTORY]

Which is one reason we have not seen restamped mums.