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  1. #21
    Contributing Member Gil Boyd's Avatar
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    IMHO it would have been far easier to convert/use the H&K G36, which does a reliable job as a medium support weapon, because thats what the IA2 rifle is.
    'Tonight my men and I have been through hell and back again, but the look on your faces when we let you out of the hall - we'd do it all again tomorrow.' Major Chris Keeble's words to Goose Green villagers on 29th May 1982 - 2 PARA

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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  3. #22
    Legacy Member Eaglelord17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentryduty View Post
    It's a definite myth in most cases, there are all sorts like this floating about, some exist for various reasons but generally if the weapon and magazine are in good order, holding the magazine as a fore grip is a rather common practice. For example the old Canadianicon Thermold C7 magazines might break if rough handled, but the new one are used as monopods during shooting in some cases, it's not an official school of thought but it will get those few extra points is your PWT is going poorly.

    Now there are some guns that are loose enough in the mag housing or well to incur stoppages but most are sturdy enough. Service weapons can't be delicate or fussy, otherwise they make poor service weapons.
    The reason isn't for stoppages (though they could be caused depending on the design) rather to avoid nastiness in the event of a out of battery detonation. Many earlier semi-auto designs vented gas down the magazine instead of into the shooters face. I happened to have this happen to me with a AG-42b which had a out of battery detonation, and it blew the floor plate right off (however the follower stayed thanks to our 5rd pinning, the first time I actually had a practical use for it). With modern designs I would say it isn't much of a issue, however with older designs I would avoid it as much as humanly possible (it could have cost me fingers or at the bare minimum left me bruised and bleeding if I was holding it by the magazine). There is a reason that stance of shooting only started becoming popular with the AR-15/M16icon design with the extended mag well and that is because before that point in time it was potentially unsafe to do so.

    It is interesting to see how myths start. Generally there is a reason things are done, however usually the reason isn't properly relayed. People start doing things because they always did it that way and eventually when questioned on why they do things they make up a reason or try to reason it out. The thought on this was it is magazine related, and it could possibly cause stoppages so that is what it became, instead of being recognized as a potential safety hazard (which as designs advanced and ammo quality improved, has shot down the risk of happening significantly).

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  5. #23
    Legacy Member Sentryduty's Avatar
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    Idle conversation here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglelord17 View Post
    The reason isn't for stoppages
    I disagree, with regard to the C7 Thermold Magazine, stoppages, damage to the feed lips, and breaking the magazine were the stated reasons in CF service, and some soldiers who made the transition between plastic and the new metal replacements would still hassle troops for holding the magazine because of past breakages.

    I have often hear that rifles were designed to intentionally designed to vent gases through the magazine, however I have never read that anywhere aside from the internet. I do understand that when most semi-autos fail the magazine is blown clear, but I am open to documented correction on this, I believe it is merely because it is the natural path of least resistance and not an intentional design feature. Having experienced a few open feed tray cookoff's with belt fed guns, the gases go whichever path is easiest and due to the bolt/breechblock/other pieces of mass, that direction is never entirely straight back at the shooter's face.

    Here is another screwball on the semi-auto safety theory, have you ever read the Sovieticon manual on the SKS rifle, and seen where the proper support hand placement is? It might surprise, cupping under the magazine, the grasping grooves on the forestock are for bayonet fighting.

    This is not the exact manual I was looking for but it does illustrate the same thing:


    I have an AG-42B myself and they are a rifle that requires a certain amount of attention to detail would ammo and feeding, mine doesn't get fired a lot partially because of ammunition sensitivity to soft primers and powders etc.

    On another note, I also still have those C7 oil bottles for you!
    - Darren
    1 PL West Nova Scotia Regiment 2000-2003
    1 BN Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry 2003-2013

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  7. #24
    Legacy Member Eaglelord17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentryduty View Post
    I disagree, with regard to the C7 Thermold Magazine, stoppages, damage to the feed lips, and breaking the magazine were the stated reasons in CF service, and some soldiers who made the transition between plastic and the new metal replacements would still hassle troops for holding the magazine because of past breakages.

    I have often hear that rifles were designed to intentionally designed to vent gases through the magazine, however I have never read that anywhere aside from the internet. I do understand that when most semi-autos fail the magazine is blown clear, but I am open to documented correction on this, I believe it is merely because it is the natural path of least resistance and not an intentional design feature. Having experienced a few open feed tray cookoff's with belt fed guns, the gases go whichever path is easiest and due to the bolt/breechblock/other pieces of mass, that direction is never entirely straight back at the shooter's face.

    I have an AG-42B myself and they are a rifle that requires a certain amount of attention to detail would ammo and feeding, mine doesn't get fired a lot partially because of ammunition sensitivity to soft primers and powders etc.

    On another note, I also still have those C7 oil bottles for you!
    I suppose it would depend on the rifle, but that being said you are using a Sovieticon example well realistically our shooting positions were adopted off of Western models which would differ from the Soviets. Those original C7 mags did cause some significant issues (had to dispose of a bunch a year ago) but to say that the shooting stance was based off of those magazines would be a bit short sighted considering those particular magazines were only in use in Canadaicon from the late 80s to the late 90s (maybe early 2000s). My father who used the FN was pretty firm on not grasping the magazine, and he had very limited experience with the C7.

    You might be right that the venting gasses into the magazine might have been a side effect rather than the intent, but that being said I still wouldn't hold my hand there on earlier firearms, as even if it wasn't intended it still happened. That experience with the AG-42b really put me off early semi-autos, and put me farther into bolt actions, which isn't such a bad thing.

    I don't remember the C7 oil bottles, but I would definitely appreciate them. Personally I am using a former C9 cleaning kit in the field, which I have customized for my uses. It is interesting the things you get handed down from one generation to the next!

  8. #25
    Contributing Member mrclark303's Avatar
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    .22lr blow back semi autos with exposed magazines are (generally speaking) very susceptible to feeding issues if the magazine's used as a holding point during firing..

    Our overloads don't trust us with full bore semi autos...

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  10. #26
    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
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    As a soldier that used the FN C1A1 for 15 years and then the C7 and C7A1 for 20 and taught recruits on both, I can answer the thoughts behind the myths... We didn't hold the magazines because it was thought to affect the grouping capability of BOTH rifles. They were designed to be held forward and the magazine was a feed device. Ruptured cartridges were given NO account as they aren't supposed to happen in the first place. They're only discussed to the point of "Action not fully forward!" and it repeats, then you have a separated case and the shooter can't remedy that. He wasn't taught that. Capt Laidlericon's men can deal with it. We didn't rest the mags on the ground while shooting as it transmitted the shock of firing through the weapon differently AND it was hard on mags. They're a feed devise, remember? The hand and sandbag are for support.

    Now, there were different trains of thought that were embraced in the rifle team's handling, but none of that was taught at recruit level or rifle company level. The rifle team did their own thing...

    That was what was what when we were doing that... And yes, the thermold mags were a delicate nightmare, the metal should have been adopted from the outset. I actually have more on that too...
    Regards, Jim

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  12. #27
    Contributing Member mrclark303's Avatar
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    Do tell Jim, interesting stuff. It's interesting to note that the Armalite in its various incarnations had been in front line service for many years before Canadaicon adopted the design. The initial issues with the rifle long since identified and addressed by that point. So why I wonder did some bright spark re-invent the wheel and procure different magazines??

  13. #28
    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrclark303 View Post
    So why I wonder did some bright spark re-invent the wheel and procure different magazines??
    Simple answer for that one. Cost. We could produce a magazine from plastic here in Canadaicon that would cost pennies compared to the US issue that we'd need to buy in bulk and pay perhaps a dollar each at source. When the mags proved to be garbage they overhauled the long multi mold instead of admitting fault. It took some years of blundering along before the hung their heads and admitted their design was headed for the gashbin and purchased metal from US suppliers, what they should have done initially.

    Remember, the rifle was Colt made originally and assembled here. The lowers were only roll marked and then anodized here. That's why the first ones had a purple translucent hue instead of the deep black of today.

    What amazed me was they were willing to take chances with our lives in action by deliberately giving us a known substandard magazine for combat use... That was their intention...
    Regards, Jim

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  15. #29
    Contributing Member mrclark303's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by browningautorifleicon View Post
    What amazed me was they were willing to take chances with our lives in action by deliberately giving us a known substandard magazine for combat use... That was their intention...
    Quite Jim ... At least you guys were dealing with a known commodity with the Armalite, change magazines and job done. Though I hate to mention the Spanish Inquisition again ... when the L85A1 was first introduced, the magazines were the least of the problem!

    Why oh why didn't we take the same very sensible route as the Canadians and licence manufacture the M16icon. By the time of the L85's introduction in the UKicon, the Americans were rolling out the M16A2 into general issue, it would have suited the UK's needs of the day just fine, along with a few carbines for tank crews etc.

    No doubt some over paid bloated bureaucrat in Whitehall would have found a way of ******* it all up and making it three times as expensive!

  16. #30
    Legacy Member Sentryduty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrclark303 View Post
    Why oh why didn't we take the same very sensible route as the Canadians and licence manufacture the M16icon. By the time of the L85's introduction in the UK, the Americans were rolling out the M16A2 into general issue, it would have suited the UK's needs of the day just fine, along with a few carbines for tank crews etc.
    No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

    It's a tough call that bit, maybe it was the pride of having a domestically designed rifle in service was placed ahead of the realities of function? Historically, Englandicon was always one of the leaders in military arms historically, at least I always considered so, but the L85 seems to have been the Waterloo. I could be way off base as the SLR was a FN design, as is the GPMG, but perhaps it was someone's Moby Dick to restore the English firearms industry?
    - Darren
    1 PL West Nova Scotia Regiment 2000-2003
    1 BN Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry 2003-2013

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