Savage No 4 Mk 1 T less telescope- Matching forearm

[Brian B]

Hello all,

Quick question about the Savage less telescope Ts converted by H&H. I looked at the nice example in the Knowledge Library and I see it has the serial number stamped on the forearm.

Were all the Savage T's less telescope marked with the serial number on the forearm?

I am asking because I just purchased an all matching rifle that does not have the serial number stamped on the forearm. Everything else on the rifle is matching and is in excellent condition. Both sections of the upper hand guards are S marked and penciled with the serial number of the rifle.

Seller is stating that they weren't marked and I don't have enough experience with the Savage Enfields to know if this is accurate.

The rifle is a 1942 13C rifle and is only a few hundred serial numbers off the Savage less telescope T in the knowledge library.

Here is a link to the auction:

Enfield Sniper rifle 1942 : Curios Relics at GunBroker.com

Look at picture 15 in the auction. That is all the markings that I can find on the forestock.

Thanks,

Brian

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Peter Laidler]

Brian, it seems as though you are worrying unnecessarily. If the fore-end fits as it should, bears evenly where it should, the muzzle lift is correct and the rifle is accurate, then I would do what I have done a zillion times since I bacame an Armourer in 1963. And that is to number it to match the rifle. That isn't cheating or defrauding anyone or making it something that it isn't. It's how life REALLY was in every real Armourers shop across the Commonwealth. I say REAL world as opposed to the unreal world of concourse competitions for rifles - like you see for cars.

The handguards were not numbered in the real world but the fore-end was, simply because the accuracy of the rifle depended wholly(?) on the fit of the fore-end and the bolt - which was also numbered. The woodwork was numbered at H&H simply because if the rifle was tested for accuracy BEFORE it got there, then by definition, if it all went back together using the same parts, it would be accurate when it left. It was as simple as that. And as such, it didn't need another accuracy test before it left, saving time and money.

Just my opinion of course based on fixing a few. And we didn't go in for factory concourse comps either so far as I recall, especially when you saw the dire condition of some of them - and especially the flogged to death L42's

[tlvaughn]

I can't answer if they all had the S/N stamped into the fore-end, but the three I own do.

[Roger Payne]

I would agree with Peter about the situation in the real world as it were, although the forend is clearly a replacement, which is I think what the OP may be getting at. The forend on the rifle now is of UK manufacture (Herbert Morris, N49), whereas the butt & guards are of Savage manufacture. All of the wood is dark, but the butt & guards are probably stained birch & the front end is walnut. Savage 4T's are commonly seen with replacement UK walnut forends, & yes, 4T forends are generally numbered to the rifle as Peter outlined.

Hope this helps.

[Brian B]

Thank you all for the feedback.

Did Savage stamp the matching serial number at the factory prior to shipping out across the pond? If the original Savage forearm was replaced for some reason by either H&H during the conversion or later by a UK armorer, then it should have been stamped with the rifles serial number?

The reason I paid the buy it now price and purchased it as a premium is to fill the hole in my collection. If its not original and correct as it left the military, I need to send it back. Do you think the forearm was replaced prior to leaving British Service? If so, I am surprised it wasn't marked with the rifles serial number.

Thanks for all the help. I appreciate it.

Brian

[Brian B]

I can't answer if they all had the S/N stamped into the fore-end, but the three I own do.

tlvaughn,

Do your three numbered Savage rifles have their original Savage marked forearms or are they UK replacements? Any chance we could get some pictures?

Thanks,

Brian B

[Roger Payne]

The short answer is that no one can say with 100% certainty, but FWIW I suspect that it was done in service as I have seen just too many similar rifles. Secondly, there is an Enfield examiner's mark just below the N49 in picture 15, which is not standard to N49 forends as they left the Morris factory, suggesting it was added after the wood was fitted to a rifle. But even if this is the case, I have no idea why the rifle serial number wasn't stamped into it. Please bear in mind the above opinion is just that, it is no guarantee, & is only my two cents' worth.

[mrclark303]

Thank you all for the feedback.

Did Savage stamp the matching serial number at the factory prior to shipping out across the pond? If the original Savage forearm was replaced for some reason by either H&H during the conversion or later by a UK armorer, then it should have been stamped with the rifles serial number?

The reason I paid the buy it now price and purchased it as a premium is to fill the hole in my collection. If its not original and correct as it left the military, I need to send it back. Do you think the forearm was replaced prior to leaving British Service? If so, I am surprised it wasn't marked with the rifles serial number.

Thanks for all the help. I appreciate it.

Brian

Hi Brian, I really wouldn't beat myself up over the forend. You have to remember these rifles left service many decades ago and will without doubt have had work carried out on it by owners and gunsmiths in the intervening years.

If everything else about the piece is good, then go for it. After all, you could buy an all matching example that was restocked and numbered to match last week..

The value attached to No4T's these days has meant very few examples haven't been "aesthetically improved" (at least) by sellers.

In short, it's impossible to claim a rifle is untouched since leaving service, take all claims of this with a huge pinch of salt!

[Lance]

My '42 Savage without scope does not have the forend marked, but my '44 BSA without scope does.

[Peter Laidler]

I can only add that, in the real world as I know it, if a rifle didn't have a numbered fore-end when it came into any of our Armourers shops when it came in, it would have before it was removed, believe me. We went NOT by what the factory said and did or what the future collecting fraternity said and did but what the EMER's and the Armourer Sergeant said and did.