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Thread: "Sporterised" Lee-Enfields in WWII

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  1. #21
    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
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    So taking from what Bruce is saying the mag cut off was deleted as of Jan '16 I have a 1916 Lithgowicon MkIII* that has the mag cut off fitted to it I also know from I think it was either yourself Bruce or another member that the rifle had a barrel change '37 barrel replacement to "H" thus stamped on top of the butt wrist (Still do not know why) could the mag cut off have been fitted then.
    Does that mean that subsequent receivers made after the Jan '16 date were not to have the cut out slot and screw hole machined into it. TIA

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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  3. #22
    Contributing Member muffett.2008's Avatar
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    Though the shot was posed as such, Parer was an expert photographer and took pic's that showed the actual combat situation.
    There is an ABC series called Parers War, a documentary on him.
    He was at the forefront in many combat situations, regularly dragging injured soldiers to safety.
    His Camera actually took his dying picture when he was shot........working with the Yanks I think.......typical.

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    Parer was killed on 17 September 1944 by Japaneseicon gunfire while filming a United Statesicon Marine advance in Palau on the island of Peleliu. He was following a unit he had always followed not sure which one.

  7. #24
    Legacy Member 5thBatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz View Post
    Well, obviously, the Mk111* was "sans cutoff" as part of its specification. Given the existence of Mk 111 rifles that have been "updated" and consequently "overstruck" with a "star", and the distinct scarcity of "intact" Mk 111s, there appears to have been some sort of concerted effort to "update" things over time.

    Yes, I know that the " * " variant was supposed to be a temporary" relaxation / "economy measure" for the duration of WW1 and that, as soon as was possible after that time, "normal" production resumed. There are also surviving examples of Mk111* rifles that were "reverted" post WW1 by fitting all the "fruit" and striking-out the "star".

    Lots of (Lithgow) bodies, marked from scratch as "111*" have the slot for the cutoff, whether they were assembled in the 1920s or the 1940s.

    To further play around with the numbers, the prodigious wastage of rifles in BOTH World Wars seriously culled the herd of "representative pieces".

    The Britishicon 1931 "Instruction For Armourers" refers to both Mk 111 AND Mk 111* rifles and contains instructions pertinent to both variants.

    The 1945! edition of the Australianicon "Identification List" covers both the Mk 111 and Mk 111*.

    The 1929 "Handbook of Small Arms seems to refer only to the Mk 111.

    According to Skennertonicon, "The Lee Enfield", pp. 160-161:

    "The Mark 111* Short Magazine Lee Enfield was officially approved on 2nd January 1916, but while the Mark 111* usually had no provision for the magazine cut-off, the omission of the cut-off was not necessarily intended to be a feature of the Mk 111*. "

    There is also an extract from the British List of Changes; para 17622, which specifies what was allowable / required in the change to the Mk 111* variant.

    "British List of Changes, Para 17622.
    Rifle-short, M.L.E., Mark III.
    1. Modifications.
    Rifle, Short M.L.E., Mark III*, without cut-off.
    2. Introduction.
    1. In future manufacture, rifles of the above mentioned pattern may embody any of the following modifications:

    (a) The omission of long range sights (dial and aperture) from stock, fore-end and body. blah, blah.

    (b) etc, etc

    2. The pattern of this rifle has been approved to govern manufacture of rifles required without cut-offs.

    It differs from the Mk 111 rifle in that the body is not slotted and drilled to receive the cut-off and screw, but, like the Mark 111, may embody the modifications mentioned at 1 above. "

    The timing of all this overlaps the changeover from Mk 6 to Mk 7 ammo, and thus includes sighting and magazine changes. the Mk 111 was introduced in 1907 and thus, was set up for Mk 6 ball, the Mk 7 not seeing service until 1910. The Mk111* was introduced as a "wartime expediency" in January 1916, some time after Mk7 ball had been officially adopted.

    Photos from the Gallipoli/ Dardanelles campaign show the widespread use of Mk111 rifles, (and a LOT of older "long" variants), as well as prodigious quantities of Mk6 ammo.
    Nothing you have said says the cutoff was "withdrawn" in 1916, in fact quite the opposite, sure the original plan for the MkIII* was with the cutoff but they kept the MkIII omitted the parts listed in pt1 of the LoC & continued to call it a MkIII at the same time they introduced the SMLE without the cutoff & called it the MkIII* but as it was the same as a MkIII the changes listed in pt1 were also applied so after 1916 there were 2 models the MkIII & the MkIII* this is supported by the fact LSA & Lithgow both produced MkIIIs with cutoffs into 1918
    Last edited by 5thBatt; 01-17-2017 at 03:51 PM.

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  9. #25
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    lots of Australianicon plantation owners and managers through out asia befor the war.

    Many LE's sold comercialy could have started out or ended up bubba'd for alot of reasons, some of them even good.

    corrosive ammo and humidity causes damage at both ends of the barrel. some solutions involve shortening the barrel.
    Last edited by mike16; 01-17-2017 at 04:32 PM.

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    Damien Parer, Australiaicon's first Oscar recipient too i believe for this

  11. #27
    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    What's all the excitement? Rifles lying around the battlefield, rifles not assigned to soldiers by number...pick one up and do what you want with it. No one will know, no one will care. It's wartime, why would anyone care, but for the odd retentive NCO or officer? Case in point, these 16th Battalion rifle numbers I copied out from a 1915 roll book: that lasted a few months in Franceicon and then out the window: no more numbers recorded. You've got a rifle and it's clean? Good enough. Didn't record the numbers off the salvaged SMLE's a lot of them were packing around along with their issued Ross MkIII's either!

    The one with the cut forend has obviously been deliberately rendered U/S by a blow on the butt and bending the barrel. The other one probably burned as mentioned. Would anyone take the rifle to bits, throw the wood away and assemble the guard etc. to the action again? Can't see any reason myself.

    The dregs of a battlefield salvage by the look of it, with the photo taken by the ordnance man to show "this is as bad as it gets".

    Remember the photo in Without Warning of the RCEME Sgt. with his cut down No4(T)? Remember how many sniper rifles were cut down in WWI? SMLEs and Rosses and not just by the Canadians either.
    Last edited by Surpmil; 01-20-2017 at 12:03 AM.
    “There are invisible rulers who control the destinies of millions. It is not generally realized to what extent the words and actions of our most influential public men are dictated by shrewd persons operating behind the scenes.”

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    Much changes, much remains the same.

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  13. #28
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    Rob, thread 27 above. While I agree with the gist of the thread Rob, I'd take issued with your comment '...pick one up and do what you want with it. No one will know, no one will care. It's wartime, why would anyone care, but for the odd retentive NCO or officer?...' Doing what you wanted with it, even in wartime and on the front line wouldn't extend to cutting it about believe me. It might include daubing a bit of paint on it or wrapping it with a bit of hessian sacking would be acceptable. Nope...... While active service might look and occasionally feel like a bit of organised chaos in reality it is organised and a well structured doctrine but things like weapon inspections right down to foot inspections (in the tropics) are still primary duties of any platoon NCO's.

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  15. #29
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    No mods were allowed when we were overseas either...
    Regards, Jim

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  17. #30
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    How does a soldier in the field bend a substantial piece of steel like a No1 barrel to a 70 degree angle?

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