Full Epoxy Bedding

[mike16]

temperture extreams and rapid temerature changes would soon loosen the metal to bedding bond. if your ok with that.

not sure what you mean ,in your title you refer to full epoxy bedding. can you describe what that means.

[Mit]

Thanks for all the responses. mike16 I can understand there will be some movement between the metal and epoxy, but can't imagine this to be much more than that between the timber and metal contact areas. By full epoxy bedding I was trying to describe bedding in such a way that the epoxy is solely relied upon on to reinforce all contact surfaces.

[Son]

For the best information on pretty much all the tried and tested bedding techniques mainly using the old method of simply shaping the foreend, not adding anything, read James Sweets books.

I have used a couple of the methods described and the processes are generally very slow and painstaking and just as often as not, fail to produce leaving you with a scrapped foreend. Back in the day another could be had easily, so out went the fail, start again from scratch. These days there are no supplies of foreends to dip into.... Personally I am against using bedding compounds in these old girls, but necessity is the mother of invention. Re using previously damaged or "fail" woodwork is the only choice these days.

About books on accurising... I have read a few of these and there are some out there who are suggesting methods that involve aspects of a few different methods from James Sweet's books.... Not saying that it wouldn't work, just that it wasn't a tried and true method... Proceed with caution, don't cut, rout, grind, sand, file, chisel or scrape any part you are not willing to throw away...

Here is a (for want of a better word) rant I had a long while back on the topic of bedding when faced with someone wanting to hack into the foreend with a dremel because his mates told him it would shoot better. Some of this won't be topical here, but pasted it all on anyway.... The method is standard bedding, but disregarding the inner band, it works quite nicely with a H barrel.... if you get it right....

The bedding basically consisted of large area of contact on the rear of the foreend on the butt socket, contact on the flat of the foreend behind the recoil surfaces, then good even contact at the recoil surfaces. The bottom of the receiver should touch the foreend on both sides from the middle of the magazine well to the front trigger guard screw lug, then around it up the receiver ring on both sides ideally to the 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock marks. The barrel knox should be bedded to at least 5 o'clock to 7 o'clock. The barrel should be centre bedded for an inch either side of the inner band recess, and then for at least the last four inches to the muzzle. With the foreend fitted as such, and the trigger guard fitted but no bands, it should take between 4 and 7 lbs of lift at the muzzle to pull it away from the foreend. If all these factors are correct, the front handguard may touch the barrel at the very front and keep the muzzle ring of the nosecap off the barrel. If all these factors are correct, then the inner band, the barrel centering stud and the nosecap do absolutely nothing. (remember, this is basics, there is more to than this)

Now, add a little warping....
The inner band is slightly bigger than the barrel. It is positioned in the foreend with a washer and spring set into the wood for the screw to pass through. The screw has a large shoulder at the end of it's shank before the thread. When in position, the shoulder locks up against the inner band. There is nothing between them to tighten. They are just locked together. The spring provides some downward tension between the band and the foreend, the band is down on the wood in it's recess. Properly bedded, it barely touches the barrel. If the foreend warps, the inner band, by way of the spring tension, holds to barrel down to the foreend... the reason for this is to keep the barrel "sprung" slightly to keep upward tension from the foreend at the muzzle. If it has warped a bit more, the barrel centering stud with it's V block construction and spring tension keep a last little bit of tension under the barrel as the foreend has warped away. At this point, the barrel has probably came in contact with the muzzle ring of the nosecap, being centered by the slight cutout at the top of the hole.

If you follow the progression, you can see the rifle still had a chance at keeping reasonable accuracy until the warping of the foreend became quite bad. Without the inner band, barrel centering stud and the nosecap, the rifle would have been back to the armourers for hours of remedial bedding work to get them shooting accurately again. The whole set up is only to reduce the maintenance liability of the bedding. This was probably the main reason behind the No4's heavier floating barrel.

Now, if you really want to touch on the dark art of SMLE bedding... just think how much work you would cause by taking a couple of thou too much wood off under the front of the receiver.... All your bedding from there forward would have to be re done as well as the angle of the rear surface of the foreend and the recoil surfaces. If you think it's not much, just ask anyone who has bedded a No1 from scratch, using the old techniques.

Then get into the depths of bedding methods for target rifles and the real witchcraft comes out... I am convinced that they require a full moon, dancing naked around a bonfire and some form of sacrifice to make them right...

anyway, here's a pic of a foreend. It shows where the barrel and action are contacting the wood from the factory...you will see that the barrel touches all the way from the inner band recess to the muzzle. This was the aim, but minimum was an inch past the inner band recess and the last four inches to the muzzle. This rifle shoots close to moa all day, hot, cold in between, out of a standard barrel.
Attachment:

Attachment 80237


There is a lot more to bedding a No1 than I've gone into here, though. It was just more a demonstration of what to look for and why it is like that.
For a lot of remedial work on rifles that haven't kept to their original bedding for some reason, I go more down the line of the methods like "India Packing" as described in James Sweets earlier books.
I offer up this bit more info in the interests of improving accuracy (I suggest if it shoots 3" at 100yds DON'T TOUCH IT!!!!! You may make it worse, so you have a lot to lose!) hopefully without ruining a collectable rifle- something I will never do for any reason.

Even though the barrel is not being held to the foreend by the upthrust of the foreend, it can still be dampened by packing the front handguard or foreend. You can use a little bit of thin gasket paper for an inch either side of the inner band and the last four inches to the muzzle in the foreend and see if this gives the upthrust as spoken about in my earlier post. Then it becomes trial and error. The muzzle ring of the nosecap might contact the top of the barrel once the foreend is packed, but if it groups ok, leave it... after all, tighter groups is the reason for mucking with it, and nothing permanent has been done that effects the value if it is a collectable.
Quite often, on testing, you will see a rifle string it's warm up shots vertically before settling into a group after half a dozen rounds. If you chose to try to get it shooting same POI cold and hot, you may be in for a whole world of pain... some rifles just will not do it, seemingly no matter what you do.
The next step would be to pack the handguard in the same areas as you packed the foreend. You can either try the handguard packed with or without the packing in the foreend, once again it becomes all trial and error. When packing the handguard, add enough so the handguard sits very slightly above the foreend at the inner band, and then you may need to pack around the outside of the foreend under the outer band to make it clamp the barrel down. Fit a bit of gasket paper in the handguard at the muzzle (only a bit over an inch, otherwise you will bow the handguard - some target shooters used to make up and fit big steel strap clamps around the front of the handguard if it was needed for accuracy) check that the handguard actually pushes down on the barrel, and once again, try it out at the range.

One point I need to make here, before all else. If the foreend is not tight at the draws, meaning it can move forwards backwards along the barrel with the triggerguard, bands nosecap and handguards removed, you are wasting your time. It is going to break. Don't ever pack the rear of the foreend at the butt socket to tighten it up, you will only speed up the process of breaking the foreend. The steel bush inside the foreend at the front trigger guard screw is a set size in relation to the wood. Off hand I won't quote a figure, but it is only very slightly shorter than the thickness of the wood, providing for a minimum of crush when tightening the screw before the trigger guard bottoms and locks on the collar. Tightening the front trigger guard screw more by shortening the bush will not stop the foreend from moving longer than a few shots- it is not a fix for a loose foreend either, and will do further damage to your foreend.

Almost every rifle is different and almost every rifle requires something different to get the most out of it. Some of these things should improve a rifle, but whether or not it reaches it's max potential is unknown, as is if it can actually be improved to begin with.

If you reach a level you are happy with, don't mess with it! Your next stroke of the chisel might stuff it beyond redemption.

Once again, there is more to it than this... but maybe you are getting the idea... "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

[Son]

Here is what I did to bed a sporter.... First pic, making the action bedding block. Second pic, a few years later, making the chassis extension and the butt adaptor. Then finished article (except for the glass... it deserves better glass!). Just a Lithgow sporter I have had since 1980...

[30Three]

Fitting up the fore end correctly can make a huge difference to accuracy.
I had serious issues with the accuracy of my No1 mkIII*. I have finally got it somewhere respectable.
The wood fit made a huge difference; I started from the wrist and worked forward. I used brass shims at the recoil lugs after some minor trimming. The shims are slightly different thickness to get the barrel properly centered and both lugs and wrist snug fit. It was a very interesting project, being my first attempt. And absolutely no Epoxy !
here are some before and after targets fired at 50 metres.
Attachment 80246Attachment 80247Attachment 80245

[mrclark303]

Using a bedding compound, 2 pack epoxy/fibreglass paste etc has it's place, especially if the forend you are using has already had an enthusiastic amateur with a dremmel attacking it at some point, or it's in generally poor serviceable order.

Point is, if it's already toast, then there's nothing to loose!

[Son]

EVERYBODY... please please please... promise me whatever you do.... you will never do what is called the "American Express/ Lemonade" bedding technique.







Attachment 80270

[martins8589]

Well with the threat of expulsion I will let the OP know that I took my fully epoxy bedded No4 7.62 out for it's first shots today to zero the scope. Projectiles are 155gn HJBC fullbore.
Straight off the bat groups are 1 1/2". Way better than I had expected. Now with load development and the Muzzle brake fitted it will hopefully go even tighter.
I came across this rifle as someone elses project and it has a Fullbore barrel fitted. I had some very poor wood so I thought I would give the Devcon Plastic steel a go. Pretty much bedded as the post above but with the draws and wrist area bedded as well. Has up pressure at the rear of the trigger guard.
Hope the OP appreciates this.

[Mit]

Thanks guys,

I will give the epoxy bedding a go to try something different.

I have repaired draws with hardwood blocks in the past but as I have taken off the original timber and am using a fore-end already channelled to free float a H barrel I don't feel as though I have that much to lose by giving the bedding technique used by Nathan Foster a go.

Thanks Martins, they are great results! how much slack did you take up in the draws with the devcon?

I will be devoting some leave I have coming up to the project and will post some pictures when complete.

[martins8589]

I would say 2mm on the drawers then bedded the back of the stock at the wrist when that had dried, then bedded the trigger guard after that had dried. So 3 procedures.
The stock also has dowels centering it.