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  1. #21
    Legacy Member Frederick303's Avatar
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    All of the competitive source relate the issue to a wet chamber causing the shot displacement, not the bedding, the following form the 1970 "Target Rifle Shooting", by E.G.B. Reynolds and Robin Fulton, two names accuracy minded Enfield fans should recognize:

    " water on a cartridge case of in a rifle chamber acts like a lubricant in much the same way as oil. When present a cartridge case cannot grip the inner surface of the chamber, resulting in greatly increased pressure on the face of the bolt-head. This inevitably has some effect on the vibratory behavior of the barrel and action, and influences the departure of the bullet.

    In the case of rifles with Lee Enfield type actions such as the No 4 rifle, the locking lugs are about 4 inches behind the bolt face........It can increase the angel of projection on the No 4 action by as much as 4 to 5 inches, though this varies between rifles."

    This is all on page 130 to 131, a lot more detail is given, and plates 55 and 56, between pages 136 and 137 illustrate how to keep ones action and ammunition dry during a storm, the demo weapon in a No 4.

    I believe if folks are interested it is also in one of Sweets books, I have not bothered to check.

    Common knowledge in the days of the 303 competition, now lost but for occasional forgotten and dusty tomes from the era.

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  4. #22
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    I think its important to keep the rifle dry. it seems others do too. wet ammo? I dont think it plays a major part in the huge error in accuracy stated above. water in the barrel and water in and around the muzzle would have a significant effect. Both of these influences have been proven in trials and testing.

    droplet on the sight, parallax? maybe but that much at 200 yards?

    Rifles can be influenced by humidity for quite some time before the humidity level rises to the point of raining. Its a mater of how long they are exposed to enough humidity to change the aim point. It does not nessisarrily need to actually be raining.. the fact that accuracy resumed after the rain ended may discount this but it bares consideration . Other shooters factor it in. and the LE with its critical wood forarm and barrel essentially surrounded by wood must bare careful consideration.

    water acting as a lubricant on the case? I wont go as far as to state its a myth but studies have been done by several nations with lubricated cases and there was little concern for accuracy deviation caused by the so called increased pressure on the bolt. The problems were the uniform layer of the lubricant once the rounds were in the hands of troops and that the lubricant attracted dirt. This obsession with the brass gripping the chamber, if it were so important why does the LE have such a notoriously loose chamber, and why does it only "grip' at the one end while at the base it clearly does not, and why does a reloaded round eventually separate at the point where the case no longer grips the chamber. I think the case expands and seals against gas leakage but the case separation over a few reloadings suggests that the rear of the case moves rearward and imposses what ever pressure it does whether the rear of the case or the entire case moves rearward against the bolt. Whether it is true or not has yet to be proven conclusivly.I think as in most supposition that this was believed to be the case when there was no way to prove it and has been repeated often and by many without a thorough study. The fact that lubricated cases have been evaluated suggests that what ever studies have been done prove quite the opposite. The russians put shellaque on thier steel cases to prevent rusting and to help seal the case to chamber interface because the steel does not expand like brass to seal. not grip. Steel cases dont expand like brass.

    Many prominant and published reloaders have also been stating thier own suspicions based on observation that many shooters, my self included that there is little difference between a lubricated case and a lubricated chamber and further more many worn chambers in cluding many many of our beloved LE's have chambers well worn to the point of being highly polished. Same said reloading Author and others who shoot gas guns encourage, advise and describe various methods of polishing the chamber. So I doubt that water or oil on the case or in the chamber have such an effect on accuracy, Lubricating the case or chamber and or polishing the chamber should be considered carefully but not discounted out of hand as is so often the case. I even polish my cases as a stage in the reloading process.

    Water/moisture in and around the muzzle would be my bet since accruacy resumed emidiatly when the rains stoped.

    The question remains....... some shooters were not effected by the rain nor when its stopped. what did they do differently?

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  6. #23
    Legacy Member Frederick303's Avatar
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    Mike 16

    Your basic premise, while it would seem to be possible, is not correct. It is the issue of the wet cases, the folks that were involved in competitive shooting, over a 40 year period all agree. we are talking about the champions, such as Fulton who won the Queens in 1958 and was second in 1959. You are simply unaware of the large amount of written texts on the topic, done when the Lee Enfield was the Fullbore completion rifle for the Britishicon empire.

    If you care to search out the sources I will put them down for you, in addition to the pervious 1964 and 1970 sources :

    The Elements of Rifle Shooting, Major Barrlow, Third edition, May 1938, page 119

    The Elements of Rifle Shooting, Brigadier Barrlow, 5th edition 1958 pages 121 to 123

    Competitive Rifle Shooting, 1956, 4th edition, James Sweet, page 69

    Rudiments of Rifle Shooting, Major Wakefield, 1948, page 28

    In Modern Rifle Shooting, 4th edition, Tippins, 1913 he does not address rain in the chamber, at least I did not find it in my brief preview but states that the muzzle jump is altered with oiled cases by around 4 minutes upwards, results based on his experiments.

    One of the tricks I used when I competitively shot the No 4 rifle was to acetone the chamber walls before the match, to eliminate any residual oil/grease that might be in the chamber. It would make the first zero shoots stay within the group, otherwise you might see an elevation shift slight elevation shift until the chamber got hot and any residue displaced.

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    Another factor I found that does not specifically deal with the wet rounds or water if if you are shooting a prolonged string which may be varying bursts (35+ rounds) with only a minute or so between the string I have found the heat haze coming off the top woods on my MkIII's and No.4's is just as bad as the mirage and can make front sight definition difficult. I always spray my front sight & ears also the rear sight with sight black so they are jet black. If you cannot readily define the front sight like the tip is greying out your rounds are going to go high or low depending on just how far out your sight picture is. And there is no way I am gluing a piece of green felt on the top woods nor flat black paint..........

    I have often thought if an oiled round increases the back thrust onto the bolt face whether this increase upsets the noding in the barrel causing perhaps the bullet exiting the barrel on the up-flip anyway good discusion and some reading to chase down.

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    Contributing Member 30Three's Avatar
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    This is an interesting topic. Seems I have a few book titles to look for now.
    Last year I had an issue shooting a competition using my No1 rifle; where the second group of 10 were all lower than the initial 10 rounds. I believe this because we were only two shooters in that round, so the marking targets was really fast and the barrel had not cooled much before starting the rapid fire round. Dropped the score considerably unfortunately
    Weather was good and dry.

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  11. #26
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    freddy,

    look at the dates of all your sources, impressive collection by the way. but its not about paying lip service to past sources impressive as they seem. My sources are less than 15 years old. I shoot rifles. I dont collect outdated literature . No arguements from me based on the pedantic ability to site minor and obscure details from outdated sources.

    Another area that has advanced somewhat since the 30's is coatings that have been in common use on rifles for at least 10-15 years. dry film thermal and lubricating coatings.

    also. I have been shooting black powder 45/70 for some time as an aside, the grease grooves in some black powder projectiles. filled with grease, some of that grease, makes its way past the opening in the case and workes its way down the side of the case and after 20 or so rounds there is a grease ring aroundthe cases about 3/8th of an inch wide. some, whether by accident or intent some form of lubrication or another eventually finds itself between the case and the chamber.

    How could grease or rain water uniformally coat each round; so uniformally that those with wet rounds shot uniformally high. How do you determine that eash round is coated over its surface with an uniform thickness of water? each round handled differently by different shooters managed to get a uniform coating of water such that several of the rifles shot the same high point. Think about it. what are the odds. Lubricants have been used with such regularity that statistical, accurate results can be reproduced by varios labs. Your sources? did they site a test result or did they accuartly reproduce the same tests. and come up with the same repeatable results.

    Your sources are outdated and serve the perpose of proving a myth, while shooting technology has moved on...and on... and on.

    Your sources are 40 to 100 years old. the technological abilities have advanced enough to prove or disprove this myth. The studies them selves eliminated all other sources? Lets reproduce the test and see if the same results occur.And lets ensure ther are no other causes and effects that might factor into the results.

    Its funny that you choose such old sources to support your supposition. Coating ammo and barrels have been around in the literture for, like I said 10-15 years.

    why did the other riles shoot streight?

    There is not even enough information in the origonal post to evaluate the cause and effect.
    Last edited by mike16; 02-21-2017 at 05:14 PM.

  12. #27
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    Cinders brought up a good point that bares consideration, A problem I recal with the LE was that, under certain limited visability conditions, the shooter can pick up one of the front sightblade protecting ears rather than the front site blade itself.

  13. #28
    Legacy Member Frederick303's Avatar
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    Dear Mike 16,

    To your point of outdated sources:

    Of course one has to allow for the possibility that two generations of UKicon, Australianicon, New Zealand and Canadian competitive rifleman, from the late 1927 to end of the .303 era in the early 1970s could have diagnosed the cause incorrectly. Because of their background, (which I will return to) I very much doubt that. While revisionist history has its place, in this case you are dealing with 45 years of accumulated wisdom, which was based on observation and scientific experiment by competitive shooters. If the names of Desmond Burke, Robin Fulton, E.G.B. Reynolds, James Sweet, and J.A. Barrow do not give you pause, you either know nothing of the period, or you suffer from a modernists disillusions that generations of old were incapable of the scientific method. A lifetime of the engineering has taught me the prior generations were just as intelligent and capable as moderns.

    Now as a simple example will suffice to show these men were capable of controlled experiments; here are the earliest results I could find in print:

    "In 1927 Gordon King and I fired some scores at around 625 yards from the shelter of the tin sheds behind the firing points at the century butt. Our shorts were not appreciably affected by the rain (ie. the rifles were dry). We then simulated rain conditions of normal shooting by dipping each round of ammunition into a glass of water and slopped water in to the action and breech (bolt). Our shots were appreciable higher. As the rain had not changed, it is presumed that the changes in breech pressure and barrel vibration were to blame."

    Desmond Burke, Canadian Bisley Rifle Shooting 1970, page 140. (Gordon King was in the Bisley finals 12 times between 1919 and 1938 and Burke was a Gold medal winner).

    The effect of oil on chamber walls was known no later than 1913 with the Long lee Enfield. The effect of water was observed, but apparently not quantified by 1927, does not appear in the small arms hand book of 1929 but does appear in quantified form in Barrows books sometime between 1932 to 1938. It then continues in print until the last series of competitive books that deal with the Lee Enfield target rifle in the early 1970s (1972 to be exact), written by the master authorities of that era (Burke, Fulton, Reynolds). Also C.B.S. book jacket shows Arthur Fulton, G.E. Twine, P. Pavey all endorsed Burkes 1970 tome. By the way these same sources point out when dealing with the P14 or other front locking lug guns the change will be virtually undetectable.


    Now you may well think I am just an idle chap who spends his day happily ensconced in arcane old books. Not so, I was in my day a reasonable shooter with service (and match rifle though I hesitate to admit such heresy) medals from Switzerlandicon, Canadaicon, Australia and of course the US. High-Master, P100, Distinguished, AMU-SDM coach, etc. Oh yea, and I am published in the field, though one article on long range 7.62 NATO match cartridges hardly counts for all that much. But the point is it is simply not a case of regurgitated book learning, I have spent some time of the shooting fields of Perry, Connaught, Malabar and Easily ranges. Of course you could have far better credentials, nor am I denigrating your knowledge, just mentioning my background to establish standing.

    Competitive shooters are to use the modern diction: "anal" when it comes to shooting and observations of weather effects. All of the authors I quoted were the big names of their era, from Tippins pre WWI to Burke and Fulton to the end of the .303 full bore reign. Between 2002 and 2013 I spent a lot of time shooting, experimenting and learning to regulate Lee Enfield Riflesicon with cordite loads and nitro loads. I found these books to be correct in all details and without them I would have been lost. That it was accepted by 40 years of shooters and the effect quantified (with exceptions noted for heat treatment variations), shows that these chaps knew of what they wrote, just as when the modern day Bernosky, Tubbs, Anderson, Tompkins or K. Thomas opines, wise men pause and recheck their assumptions before dismissing these fellows ideas out of hand.
    Last edited by Frederick303; 02-22-2017 at 08:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crusty View Post
    Just been to a 200m shoot, most of us shot about 12 - 18" high when it started raining. After the rain stopped we all shot to centre again.

    I've heard the saying "lights up, sights up" - but what about rain? The rain wasn't long enough to soak the stock.
    Could you tell something about the wether exept
    For rain.? Wind, temperature, humidity
    Light rain or heavy rain?
    I Think it is chance in airdensity caused by the rain
    To be the reson why you POI is higher.

    Jsne
    Last edited by Jsne; 02-22-2017 at 01:30 PM.

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    Off track a bit BUT the reason we know all about shooting and the whys and wherefores are from preceding generations not to forget Percy Pavey from the list they did the inroads others in fire arm development like Speer, Keith, Bowman also assisted now we have Tubb, Shehane and Litz all help getting the knowledge out there.
    The big difference with todays shooters than those of past ages is our gear and powder/primers are far superior in quality than they had to operate with there is only one constant that is the same between the eons and that is climactic conditions this is the field leveler as it was the same for them as for us mirage is mirage and a howling wind is just that across the ages.
    When I transitioned from full bore shooting which I had done for 20 years I often pre shift gave the effies stick calling them Barn door shooters as that's what their looking at but I was wrong totally I can attest that it is far more difficult as you may say barn doors but they shrunk the barn door rather sharply E G The "X" ring at 500m is 50mm in diameter some of our shooters can land 5-6 out of ten shots in there consistently the rest are 6's.
    Then you can see the conditions change from moment to moment constantly doping the shot I watched a guy last weekend trying to wind to the conditions in his first string and it was from one side to the other chasing the mirage and then remembering what you had wound lost cause the second string I got him to the 6 ring with his sighters then said now dope the hold as you can keep up with the changes far better and there is nothing to forget except when we get to 1000yds the mirage is so bad at times the lines on the target look like an ocean of waves and your aiming at a target that is not there.

    Nope the oldies did it tough with gear that was not as good as we have today but I tell you I for one would not want to have them on the opposing side shooting at me even with their antiquated rifles a definite liability to ones health....

    Also ~ Lights down, Sights down.

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