The SMLE 1903-1989
+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 11 to 19 of 19

Thread: M1 Carbine ( Bavarian )

Click here to increase the font size Click here to reduce the font size
  1. #11
    Legacy Member earl canuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Last On
    08-15-2020 @ 11:35 PM
    Location
    Great White North
    Posts
    5
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    04:51 PM
    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by painter777 View Post
    Deldriver,
    I remember while visiting one of the BHAMA Gang friends of mine, he was peeling off the 'BLACK' from the same area on a Bavarian he had just purchased from the south store. It was like a black tar, after removal it clearly read Bavaria Forest etc. Other than that we couldn't find anything out of the norm of a rebuilt US WWII carbine (?) go figure, it was also a late NPM.
    I don't own any but will say with the research Jim Mock has done, they are a lot more interesting to me.

    Especially a recent Railroad model I believe it was him who had picked up on GB.

    Cheers
    CH-P777
    Hi Charlie,

    If I rub that area it does appear the black will come off, but I am hesitant to do so...also, I would think that if it was engraved underneath ( which I think at one point it must have been ) you would be able to see it through the black, but it looks smooth to me, like the engraving was milled off ( or maybe I'm wrong, you wouldn't be able to see the engraving through the black if it was still there? )

    ---------- Post added at 05:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglelord17 View Post
    Your location is listed as the great white north which I assume means Canadaicon. Value would be in around the 600-800$ range, you see them come up for sale from time to time in Canada (it actually seems to be more common to see a Bavarian M1icon Carbine for sale than a regular M1 Carbine in Canada). Prices are kept down by the fact they are restricted here, which essentially limits them to being a range toy in a uncommon caliber for most people.
    Hi Eagle, thanks for the input, yes BC. Yes, being restricted does limit it a bit, but still a fun shooter I was thinking it should be in the range you suggested, but just wanted confirmation from someone else.

  2. Thank You to earl canuck For This Useful Post:


  3. # ADS
    Friends and Sponsors
    Join Date
    October 2006
    Location
    Milsurps.Com
    Posts
    All Threads
    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  4. #12
    Legacy Member Sunray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    03-29-2021 @ 03:01 PM
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    1,053
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    07:51 PM
    "...why they would put a rear sight on..." Supposedly because the U.S. government thought that Germanicon police and Game Wardens were used to using Mauser style sights.
    Anyway, U.S. values do not apply in Canadaicon. Also assuming Earl's in Canada. Be surprised if you could get $600-$800 in Canada. Definitely not a range toy unless your club is rated for restricted rifles.
    "...No, which I think is a good thing..." That's a good thing no matter what.
    "...(re)imported before a certain date..." Yep. U.S. Gun Control Act of 1968 banned the return of any Lend/Lease firearm. Anyway, Century did not use an electric pencil, they stamped.
    Spelling and Grammar count!

  5. Avoid Ads - Become a Contributing Member - Click HERE
  6. #13
    Advisory Panel
    painter777's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    @
    Location
    Central Michigan
    Posts
    5,312
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    07:51 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunray View Post
    Century did not use an electric pencil, they stamped
    From what I read on Jim M's Bavarian carbine web site, found about halfway down the page in the link below;

    "At the time that Century Arms imported these carbines, they operated a second headquarters in St. Laurent, Quebec, Canadaicon. Some of the weapons that they imported from abroad went to Canada first, and then were forwarded to their St. Albans facility. Century Arms sold to wholesalers in Canada. More than a few of these M1 carbines are owned by Canadians. Most have no import mark. A few in Canada that have been found to have the Century Arms import mark have been traced to sources within the U.S.iconA."


    " Century Arms had ordered the dies for their importer stamping, but when the first M1 carbines arrived in St. Albans, VT they had not yet received them. Rather than wait, due to the volume of carbines they had to deal with and the pressure to get them moving for sales, they used hand held engravers instead. The mark was placed on the left side of the receiver about even with the receiver ring, partially above and below the stock"

    "After they received their dies, the import mark was placed on the bottom or side of the barrel."

    Here's the link, look at the section titled- Century Arms Inc.

    LINK:

    U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

    FWIW,
    Charlie-Painter777

  7. #14
    Legacy Member new2brass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Last On
    09-26-2023 @ 03:39 PM
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    99
    Real Name
    Dan
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    07:51 PM
    I would argue it has a bit more value to the right collector. How many do you see that retain the relocated rear sight with filled dovetail! the dovetail is not ground down. it is filled and serrated as mentioned to reduce glare.
    Another plus with the Bavarians is that they tend to have parts "as left the factory" which in my opinion adds value.

    the negatives are that someone attempted to remove the left rail "Bavarian" marks. stock and hand guard clearly saw service on another carbine, however it looks as if stock never saw a type 2 or 3 band, a plus to a collector.
    The Bavarian markings in my opinion add provenance. we know they served during the war and directly after stayed in the Germanicon states.

    Look at the rear tang of the trigger housing, does it have the last 4 of serial?

  8. Thank You to new2brass For This Useful Post:


  9. #15
    Legacy Member Drill Sergeant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    04-24-2020 @ 12:09 PM
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    57
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    04:51 PM

    Get thee to Jim. . .

    Another STRONG recommendation that you contact U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

    Ask your question there. You will be dealing with 'Da MAN' of Bavarian Carbines. Jim is responsive, highly knowledgeable and true gentleman. Then, if you have time, you can check out the two Carbines that I have contributed to his site.

    Let us know of his input.

  10. Thank You to Drill Sergeant For This Useful Post:


  11. #16
    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last On
    Today @ 01:16 PM
    Location
    Victoria BC
    Posts
    29,838
    Real Name
    Jim
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    04:51 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunray View Post
    Also assuming Earl's in Canadaicon.
    You folk have to understand these guns are in Canada, so US value and ardor don't apply... It's all conjecture.
    Regards, Jim

  12. #17
    Advisory Panel
    painter777's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    @
    Location
    Central Michigan
    Posts
    5,312
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    07:51 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by new2brass View Post
    someone attempted to remove the left rail "Bavarian" marks.
    It's stated somewhere on Jims site that it was required that the AGENCY NAME be removed, before transfer to another AGENCY, or returned.... Something like that, but sure I read it somewhere on the site.

    I'll try looking, while waiting on dinner ;-)..

    And to Drill Sergeant,
    I couldn't agree more with your advice to take it to Jim, truly a knowledgeable man, full of passion and highly respected by all of us.

    Charlie-Painter777

    P.S. Also thought I read that the other number (not matching serial number, may have meant something other than a serial number... aka like a service district) but not positive without more researching JM's site deeper for a re-fresher course!
    Last edited by painter777; 05-20-2017 at 06:00 PM. Reason: Add P.S.

  13. #18
    Advisory Panel
    painter777's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    @
    Location
    Central Michigan
    Posts
    5,312
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    07:51 PM
    U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

    Pulled From This Section:
    Disposition of the U.S. M1icon carbines in Bavaria
    :
    Bavarian Department of the Interior) ordered the Bayerisches Waffenamt to remove the Bavaria Rural Police markings from these carbines before they were turned over to Niedersachsen.

    How many of these carbines had the Bavaria agency names removed is not known. The order was issued, but at some point it was no longer obeyed, as revealed by Bavaria's sale of carbines to Austria. In 1955 another 900 M1 carbines were sold by Bavaria to Baden-Wurttemberg for their police.

    U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

    On 01 October 1952 Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony) obtained a loan of 500 of Bavaria's U.S. M1 carbines. All of the carbines were marked "Bavaria Rural Police". Bavaria's Waffenamt office was ordered by Bavaria to remove the Bavaria agency markings from the carbines. Niedersachsen did not mark the carbines. An additional 2200 M1 carbines were obtained from Bavaria by Niedersachsen by 1955, when all were collectively paid for by Niedersachsen. It is not known if Bavaria required the markings from the later carbines be removed.

    After Niedersachsen, Bavaria sold carbines to European gunbrokers, who wholesaled them to other brokers. Two gunbrokers in Zurich are known to have removed the German police markings and covered this receiver area with a black epoxy type substance. Some buyers would not buy the carbines if they had the German markings on them, or preferred not to have the German markings on the carbines they bought. This practice was apparently not uncommon amongst wholesalers. Some used a black paint instead of the epoxy that can easily be scraped off with a fingernail. Others chose not to use a black covering, usually having done a very professional job in removing the marks, polishing the receiver area, and cold bluing the effected area.

    Best I can do right now, HTH

    Charlie-painter777

  14. Thank You to painter777 For This Useful Post:


  15. #19
    Legacy Member earl canuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Last On
    08-15-2020 @ 11:35 PM
    Location
    Great White North
    Posts
    5
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    04:51 PM
    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by new2brass View Post
    I would argue it has a bit more value to the right collector. How many do you see that retain the relocated rear sight with filled dovetail! the dovetail is not ground down. it is filled and serrated as mentioned to reduce glare.
    Another plus with the Bavarians is that they tend to have parts "as left the factory" which in my opinion adds value.

    the negatives are that someone attempted to remove the left rail "Bavarian" marks. stock and hand guard clearly saw service on another carbine, however it looks as if stock never saw a type 2 or 3 band, a plus to a collector.
    The Bavarian markings in my opinion add provenance. we know they served during the war and directly after stayed in the German states.

    Look at the rear tang of the trigger housing, does it have the last 4 of serial?
    No, I have seen examples of those rifles....mine does not; I included all markings I could find in my original post.

    ---------- Post added at 04:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by painter777 View Post
    U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

    Pulled From This Section:
    Disposition of the U.S. M1icon carbines in Bavaria
    :
    Bavarian Department of the Interior) ordered the Bayerisches Waffenamt to remove the Bavaria Rural Police markings from these carbines before they were turned over to Niedersachsen.

    How many of these carbines had the Bavaria agency names removed is not known. The order was issued, but at some point it was no longer obeyed, as revealed by Bavaria's sale of carbines to Austria. In 1955 another 900 M1 carbines were sold by Bavaria to Baden-Wurttemberg for their police.

    U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

    On 01 October 1952 Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony) obtained a loan of 500 of Bavaria's U.S. M1 carbines. All of the carbines were marked "Bavaria Rural Police". Bavaria's Waffenamt office was ordered by Bavaria to remove the Bavaria agency markings from the carbines. Niedersachsen did not mark the carbines. An additional 2200 M1 carbines were obtained from Bavaria by Niedersachsen by 1955, when all were collectively paid for by Niedersachsen. It is not known if Bavaria required the markings from the later carbines be removed.

    After Niedersachsen, Bavaria sold carbines to European gunbrokers, who wholesaled them to other brokers. Two gunbrokers in Zurich are known to have removed the German police markings and covered this receiver area with a black epoxy type substance. Some buyers would not buy the carbines if they had the German markings on them, or preferred not to have the German markings on the carbines they bought. This practice was apparently not uncommon amongst wholesalers. Some used a black paint instead of the epoxy that can easily be scraped off with a fingernail. Others chose not to use a black covering, usually having done a very professional job in removing the marks, polishing the receiver area, and cold bluing the effected area.

    Best I can do right now, HTH

    Charlie-painter777
    Thanks painter, yes I had read that info already....really hard to know for sure what route the carbine took without them recording serials, which I am sure was probably just too much trouble for them considering the volume of guns that they were moving.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Similar Threads

  1. Stock on Bavarian carbine
    By coalgeo in forum M1/M2 Carbine
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 12-10-2015, 02:14 PM
  2. Bavarian carbine price ?
    By roscoe1952 in forum M1/M2 Carbine
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 12-13-2011, 02:19 PM
  3. Bavarian carbine ( help )
    By DICKX in forum M1/M2 Carbine
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 07-20-2011, 05:05 PM
  4. Underwood Bavarian Carbine
    By thorin6 in forum M1/M2 Carbine
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 08-13-2010, 05:56 AM
  5. Bavarian M1 Carbine's
    By Randoj in forum M1/M2 Carbine
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 03-11-2009, 02:53 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Raven Rocks