What Kind of Crazy Beast is this?

[jdudman77]

Hi,
I am a new member and first post here so please bear with me and sorry for the long winded description. I am not really sure where else to go with my questions.


Does anyone here have any thoughts on this rifle and story? As in What the heck is this scope doing on THIS rifle?? Sorry for the poor pictures some were from the original listing others I took at home to quickly put up for comment.

I recently came upon this rifle online and purchased it from the listing gun dealer. The rifle was marketed only as a Remington 513T with a unertl 10x scope on it and a BA/JPL cartouche on the stock…. That’s it. I spoke to the manager of the store and he said someone had brought it in stating that it had been owned by a deceased parent. The shop owner purchased the gun and then listed it for sale at a very modest price apparently not knowing exactly what it was they had.

As I looked at the ad and the additional photos sent to me on request. I first wondered about the BA/JPL cartouche mentioned. I looked it up online and I decided that it was a Benicia Arsenal Rebuild with the JPL being for a John P. Lewis either the inspector or chief armorer at the time (early to mid 40s). I then assumed that it would have the other US Property markings on it that would correspond with the barrel serial number of around 24,000 making it one of the initial order by the US Government in 1941… However I did not ask the shop owner at the time. This prompted me to take a closer look at the scope and determined from photos that it was in fact an 8x scope (no Spring) NOT a 10x as listed. I scanned to the serial #16xx indicating that it fit in the range for the US Governments first order of Unertl scopes for a new sniper program in 1941. Indeed the scope also now in bearly visible writing in the photo had the text
Imprinted near the serial number USMC SNIPER !

In addition to the Benicia Arsenal cartouche, the Remington also had a numeral 2 on the bottom of the grip of the stock and the US PROPERTY marking on both the barrel and receiver. Interestingly, the barrel, receiver and bolt all have
different serial numbers. All between 24,000-64,000. Interestingly, the rifle was very dirty and the interior surface of the sunshade yielded much dust and dirt when wiping it out. Leading me to believe that no collector or enthusiast would allow such a rifle to be treated this way. I also believe that it is highly probable that the scope was put on the rifle in the time frame mentioned above as were all other parts to my thinking, as none of the screws showed any signs of being nicked or removed. The rifle cleaned up very nicely ( mistake??) as did the scope. The scope was apparently on a high power rifle at one time as the slide marks are much longer than they would be from use on the remington 22LR i would say maybe 4 inches long of bluing fade.

My question for anyone here that may know something about these things is. What manner of beast might this be?? The only thing I can come up with is that the scope may have originally been put out on a legitimate Springfield 1903 A1 and then at some later time brought back and re-provisioned onto the 513T being rebuilt at the Benicia Arsenal. Was there such a thing as a Sniper Training Rifle that was in this configuration used by the marines? It seems to me one of the only Logical conclusions…. Unless some armorer decided to build it for himself and take it home.

It doesn't seem like it would be a counterfeit in any way as why would someone do it on this rifle. I have had a Unertl expert look at it and he seems confident that it is authentic.

Other Notes:
1943 Remington 513T SN 24797 on bottom of barrel (63537 on bolt) Looks like WW or MM date of Manuf on left of barrel(BA/JPL)Benicia Arsenal rebuild Cartouche army trainer from 1940-1943 (original) 1941 Unertl 8x (USMC Sniper) scope SN 1655 same timeframe….cartouche acronym: Benecial Arsenal, John P. Lewis Inspector/Ordinance Officer In-Charge appropriate for the 1940-1943 timeframe

Notes: I read that any rifles sent to the Philippines in WWII were inspected and prepared for shipment at Benecia Arsenal.
Last but not least the rifle is a tack driver (way more than you would expect with a 513T) indicating someone really got lucky, OR… knew EXACTLY what they were doing with the rebuild. I have been told but do not know with conviction that armorers of the time frequently used different parts from different guns on rebuilds.

Any feedback on all of this as far as shedding lights on common practice, use of the equipment or any other thing of relevance would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks for you thoughts
JD

Information

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[cplstevennorton]

The Marines actually did put leftover Unertl 8X's from the 03A1 Sniper program on Remington 513T's and issued them out to units as training/match rifles.

I have orders of units requesting them for target use, mostly post WWII.

The BA stamp is interesting on this, as Benecia did at times store/ship/receive rifles from the Marine Corps. They also at times did do repair work for the Marine Corps on small arms.

The scope is real as others have told you, and is a expensive scope if you haven't priced them yet.

It's hard to say for certain if the rifle was Marine, just because it's about impossible to prove. And it's hard to say when the scope was mated with that rifle.

But I think it's feasible to say it could have been a Marine rifle in this setup.

[jdudman77]

Thanks for this reply! Do you happen to know where I might be able to find a source that would contain some of these orders requesting the 513T's Unertls for target use. They would be very interesting for me to peruse.

Thanks Again
JD