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Thread: QUESTION REGARDING MR. LAIDLERS BOOK .303 No4 (T) SNIPER RIFLE AND THE H&H CONNECTION

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  1. #11
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    Peter Laidler's Avatar
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    There was no requirement to number the bracket to the rifle by anyone initially. It came about much later. Even up to the 70's and into the L42 era it was quite common to see No4T's without a numbered bracket. Cl;early there is some misinformation surrounding this that needs correcting before a mixture of this pure ......., er........... misinformation becomes gospel. Maybe someone can resurrect it. Or do I have to repeat it.

    Regarding DRP's thread 8. Bros, please understand that was how to 'correct' things and not how they were set up originally

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    Really Senior Member Seaforth72's Avatar
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    "bros" asked "do they ever "FTR" stamp a T? "

    Yes, they did mark some No.4 MK. I (T) rifles with F.T.R.

    My 1931 Enfield Trials No. 4 MK. I serial number "A 1989" was converted at Enfield in 1941-1942 into a No. 4 Mk. I (T). "A 1989" served long and hard. She remained in service until at least 1963, according to the Britishicon Army labels numbered to both the rifle and scope. This rifle went through a Factory Thorough Repair (F.T.R.), likely in 1945 or after that. She is "F.T.R." stamped on the left side of the body socket, just above the "TR". The barrel is dated 1945 and the rifle was matched in-service with scope No. 32 MK. 3 serial number 25455.

    Please ignore the odd colouring. I played with the photo in Photoshop to try to bring up the markings.

    Colin MacGregor Stevens https://www.captainstevens.com WANTED: REL 5X scope; LB Scout Sniper Rifle windmill sight & furniture; C/|\ butt with built-in cheek rest; No. 4 71L0451, 28L0844, ASE-xxxx ; No.32 Mk. I SN 1042; Trials No. 4 rifle parts.

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    Advisory Panel Lee Enfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seaforth72 View Post
    The early Long Branch (two words by the way) brackets do not seem to have been marked with the rifle serial number (SN) originally at Small Arms Limited which was located at Long Branch, Toronto, Ontario, Canadaicon. Several Canadian brackets survive that have no serial numbers. Some Canadian brackets were certainly numbered with stamped rifle serial numbers before they left military service e.g. In the 68Lxxxx batch. That stamping was usually just above the rear knob. Usually the full rifle serial number was stamped, but I have observed two examples where only the last four numbers, those after the "L" in the rifle serial number, were stamped on Britishicon brackets mated to Canadian made rifles in service.

    Experimental Long Branch brackets have been observed in photos with stamped rifle serial numbers.

    The 71Lxxxx sniper rifles and those made after this batch appear to have had the rifle serial number engraved on the bracket at SAL, in the centre of the horizontal connecting bar on the left side.

    ...snip...
    I believe that all (with the possible exception of VERY early examples - there are just too few examples of really early rifles available to examine, and many of the ones "popping up" seem to have been "of recent manufacture") LB brackets which were fitted to rifles were marked with rifle serial numbers at Long Branch. As Seaforth has stated, early ones are hand-stamped and may not contain all of the serial number digits (I have seen several which only contained the last 4 digits of the rifle's serial number).

    I have seen several LB manufactured rings which were not numbered, but they appear to have been un-fitted spares (held in stores? they were listed as available in the early '50s). NOTE* edited to correct: sorry, my memory was at fault, TP and C.67 mounts are listed as available, the conventional No32 rings are not.

    I have noted machining variations which show a progression during production...ie) you can (generally) differentiate rings on a 71L (for example) from those on a 90L just by the machining differences.
    Last edited by Lee Enfield; 03-29-2017 at 01:13 AM.
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    If I may be so bold, the inter-relationship of the mating surfaces on the bracket and pads is such that no adjustment is possible except to remove material from one or more of the four mating surfaces so as to get the four to bear fully and squarely on each other.

    Once that is achieved one has a perfect mechanical fit as the designers intended, but the alignment of the axes is not the same thing at all; that will depend on the accuracy of the setup and machining, as any 'finessing' of any mating surface in an attempt to change the alignment of the axes will lead to a corresponding misalignment in the other mating surfaces.

    We went through this with the I.W.S. brackets and trying to salvage some slightly misaligned "J rails" from the early production: removing material could not change the alignment of the axes without sacrificing even and full contact of the mating surfaces, so that was the end of that, and now they are paper weights!
    Last edited by Surpmil; 03-29-2017 at 02:54 AM.
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    I'm afraid that bringing IWS brackets into the equation, even original manufactured ones, while discussing collimation is NOT comparing like with like for many reasons. Even when the original L42/IWS brackets were formulated by IXXXX, they were all machined to a generic spec and NOT for a particular rifle (although some were numbered to a rifle for certain reasons laid down in the Inst and SL EMER). I'm not going to elaborate on this too much for fear of yet another round of long winded explanations. Suffice it to say, the IIW sight has a greater FoV than a normal telescope (large OG lens....) and is zeroed at ONE range. No adjustment thereafter.

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    Contributing Member bros's Avatar
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    Trying still to clarify this!!!
    So the pads were installed to the receiver via solder and screws...then they were finish machined and so to say "trued up to the bore". Next the bracket was fixed to the rifle. Obviously at this point the mating surfaces on the bracket must have been finish machined to be accepted to the finished pads on the rifle. The complete barreled action must have then been securely held in a jig and the bracket must have been line-bored....that is the only way I see how the bracket/scope could be trued perfectly to the bore and that's why each bracket was so specific to each rifle!!! I feel that my question has not really been answered. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here because I have a lot of respect for the people of this forum they are a lot more knowledge than me but I do have a machining background that goes back more than a few years. Please tell me if I am wrong and if I am, why. The manufacturing process I find is most interesting as well...just trying to get a better understanding.
    Cheers!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seaforth72 View Post
    Please ignore the odd colouring. I played with the photo in Photoshop to try to bring up the markings.
    I find the "invert colours" feature in MS Paint can be useful. After a recent revision they hid this feature, the better to improve the useability of the software. Now you have to select the area you want to invert colours for and select that option with a right click and a drop down menu.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bros View Post
    Trying still to clarify this!!!
    So the pads were installed to the receiver via solder and screws...then they were finish machined and so to say "trued up to the bore". Next the bracket was fixed to the rifle. Obviously at this point the mating surfaces on the bracket must have been finish machined to be accepted to the finished pads on the rifle. The complete barreled action must have then been securely held in a jig and the bracket must have been line-bored....that is the only way I see how the bracket/scope could be trued perfectly to the bore and that's why each bracket was so specific to each rifle!!! I feel that my question has not really been answered. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here because I have a lot of respect for the people of this forum they are a lot more knowledge than me but I do have a machining background that goes back more than a few years. Please tell me if I am wrong and if I am, why. The manufacturing process I find is most interesting as well...just trying to get a better understanding.
    Cheers!!

    From my limited experience, whilst it appears that you have most of the steps down correctly, final fitting the bracket did not include the "on rifle" line boring operation. Rather, it appears to me that most of the fitting at H&H was done by scraping in the rear pad surfaces. Probably by noting the misalignment and then working down the appropriate surface(s). Likely a small shell cutter for the front spigot flat, easily made for hand use, but I don't think it needed as much tweaking as the rear. Hand scraping is largely a lost skill, but capable of very precise metal removal in tiny quantities.




    I've made up quite a few scrapers out of old files (usually starting by removing the teeth via surface grinder, then shaping to suit) over the years. And have done the repair to a few L42a1s and No.4Mk.I(T)s. Patience, a light touch and a good metal dye are key! That and a way to collimate the works on the bench.


    Would guess that folk used to fitting fine doubles would have found the task quite elementary.
    Last edited by jmoore; 04-04-2017 at 03:47 AM.

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    To be honest, I haven't commented further because it's all been previously written down in fine detail should those wanting to read it wish to find it. But in short, H&H machine aligned the body pads NOT to the body but to the mechanical axis of the bore. That way EVERY pad is individual to that rifle/bore, set up on an old lathe bed between centres and locked down. The next known datum is the mechanical axis of the 1" hole in the bracket. Once that is done you can machine every pad mating surface for line, depth, verticality and horizontality ........

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