+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 29

Thread: Australian Coachwood fore ends without copper recoil blocks?

Click here to increase the font size Click here to reduce the font size
  1. #11
    Advisory Panel
    Peter Laidler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last On
    03-24-2024 @ 09:52 AM
    Location
    Abingdon, Oxfordshire. The home of MG Cars
    Posts
    16,507
    Real Name
    Peter Laidler
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    07:12 PM
    My old boss in the NZ Army, WO2 'Jock' Annandale, the chief Armourer at the Northern District Base Ordnance Depot who taught me all I know about the No1 rifle (we only touched on them while we were apprentices) explained to me that the copper blocks used by Australiaicon were a frill - if not a direct fraud. I have got my steel helmet on and awaiting the incoming mortars from you wild antipodeans now..... Because the notion of keeping these blocks in place, under load, using a small wood screw INTO the grain of a wood was an idea based on fuzzy logig. If the wood wasn't tough enough at the end grain to tale the load/pressure of the drawers, under load............ then what makes it any more successful in taking the load of the drawers with a copper block between it?

    I'm just repeating what he said but using more polite language. And in any case, he explained politely........ when the draws need repairing, then what....... Thicker copper blocks with longer and equally useless screws? Or just cut them out as with the No4's and patch using hardwood as per the NZ equivalent of EMEI's

  2. Thank You to Peter Laidler For This Useful Post:


  3. # ADS
    Friends and Sponsors
    Join Date
    October 2006
    Location
    Milsurps.Com
    Posts
    All Threads
    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  4. #12
    Legacy Member Bindi2's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Last On
    Today @ 09:18 AM
    Location
    Western Australia
    Posts
    1,446
    Local Date
    03-29-2024
    Local Time
    01:12 AM
    why would a hardwood block be any different to a copper block.

  5. Avoid Ads - Become a Contributing Member - Click HERE
  6. #13
    Legacy Member Homer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Last On
    02-26-2024 @ 03:30 AM
    Posts
    657
    Local Date
    03-29-2024
    Local Time
    03:12 AM
    The copper plates were a reasonable enough fix for the problem given there wasn't much else. The screw doesn't have to hold much being virtually in line with the axis of recoil. The plates present a hard surface to even the load over a broader area. No doubt was easier to throw a worn stock away rather than repair.

  7. #14
    FREE MEMBER
    NO Posting or PM's Allowed
    BushyFromOz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Last On
    07-22-2019 @ 11:10 PM
    Location
    Mexico, Australia
    Posts
    347
    Local Date
    03-29-2024
    Local Time
    03:12 AM
    Thread Starter
    Either the coachwood is hard enough to take the recoil or it isnt, if it isnt, should the draws be replaced with something that is?

  8. #15
    Advisory Panel
    Peter Laidler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last On
    03-24-2024 @ 09:52 AM
    Location
    Abingdon, Oxfordshire. The home of MG Cars
    Posts
    16,507
    Real Name
    Peter Laidler
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    07:12 PM
    Bindi, thread 12 and others. Hardwood blocks are a patch, glued in sides and rear and pegged side to side and set back 1/2" or so as shown in thread about patching fore-ends
    Screws are not in line with the recoil.
    Plates are not practically a larger area than normal. The drawers are the bearing surface.
    Throw away unserviceable fore-end. Cheaper to fix it especially when they're coming into NZicon from overseas

  9. #16
    Legacy Member Homer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Last On
    02-26-2024 @ 03:30 AM
    Posts
    657
    Local Date
    03-29-2024
    Local Time
    03:12 AM
    Bushy it was replaced, with the copper plates. You can't fix what is a poor choice of timber but the plates remedied the problem well enough to finish the war and beyond. The screw may have presented a weakness, but I've never noted the draws give away because of the screw. Its usually the whole area of wood right back to the receiver ring that breaks away. Happens in Walnut too but to a much lessor extent no doubt.

    Walnut inserts were tried for a brief period in Qld maple stocks in the late 20's.

    It seems the factory engineers thought the plate design good enough to see out production.
    Last edited by Homer; 03-29-2017 at 09:19 AM.

  10. #17
    FREE MEMBER
    NO Posting or PM's Allowed
    BushyFromOz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Last On
    07-22-2019 @ 11:10 PM
    Location
    Mexico, Australia
    Posts
    347
    Local Date
    03-29-2024
    Local Time
    03:12 AM
    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Laidlericon View Post
    Bindi, thread 12 and others. Hardwood blocks are a patch, glued in sides and rear and pegged side to side and set back 1/2" or so as shown in thread about patching fore-ends
    Screws are not in line with the recoil.
    Plates are not practically a larger area than normal. The drawers are the bearing surface.
    Throw away unserviceable fore-end. Cheaper to fix it especially when they're coming into NZicon from overseas
    Then why would they swap to copper blocks if they had alrwady tried hardwood inserts?

    Im confused by the need to do this (copper blocks) if a tried procedure (hardwood inserts) already or is this one of those "not sure why" government procurement mess-up type issues

  11. #18
    Legacy Member Homer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Last On
    02-26-2024 @ 03:30 AM
    Posts
    657
    Local Date
    03-29-2024
    Local Time
    03:12 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by BushyFromOz View Post
    Then why would they swap to copper blocks if they had alrwady tried hardwood inserts?

    Im confused by the need to do this (copper blocks) if a tried procedure (hardwood inserts) already or is this one of those "not sure why" government procurement mess-up type issues
    I don't know mate, I wasn't there. I'm only posting what happened as well as I know it. The walnut inserts were used in qld maple stocks in the late 20's. Maybe the method was not a success and maybe its because the technique was poor. I've had some very sound examples and a couple with busted inserts as pictured. Whatever the reasons, they persisted with the copper plates.
    Last edited by Homer; 03-29-2017 at 09:39 AM.

  12. Thank You to Homer For This Useful Post:


  13. #19
    Advisory Panel Son's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last On
    03-26-2024 @ 07:30 AM
    Location
    On the right side of Australia, below the middle and a little bit in from the edge.
    Posts
    1,239
    Local Date
    03-29-2024
    Local Time
    04:12 AM
    Here are a few pics that might help everyone visualise what is being discussed.
    First pic shows a foreend without any reinforcement of any kind. Note the size and location of the compression of the draws from recoil... less than half the width of the ledge, all at the inside edge

    Attachment 82305

    Pic2, a foreend that according to the description that came with it, was an armourers repair. Seems to only replace the bit that was compressed, not significantly wider or deeper than the contact area.

    Attachment 82304

    Pic 3. Three foreends with the draws area highlighted...
    Left is a coachwood foreend, without the recoil blocks, showing the contact area as less than half the surface.
    In the center is a SLAZ 43 foreend, unfinished and unfitted- like so many of the JJ Co builds- very pale and also a tad out of shape- but when touched to a barreled action, it marked where the lugs were going, less than half.
    On the right is a coachwood foreend with the copper plates fitted at the factory and unused. Note the copper plates are not only covering all the surface, but have been cut in further at the outside to increase the surface contact. This keeps the center line of the screw outside the impact area, so it won't be directly effected by it. The screw can keep the plate square to the lugs and spread the load evenly over about triple the surface area of the recoil lugs- the marks from which can just be seen at the points of the arrows.

    Attachment 82303

    I suggest the copper plates were more than just an ok fix for a timber that was not really suitable for the job.

    Getting back to the "unused" Slaz 43 foreends... from my theories folder...
    Coachwood blanks were milled green and block stacked a long time in advance to allow them to dry naturally. By late 1942 rifle production had been out stripping the supply of dried/ seasoned foreend blanks to the extent that other methods of drying were needed. They experimented with kiln dried blanks but found the rapid drying left them unstable and very prone to warping once cut to form. A lot were treated this way and some used while new supplies of blanks were being seasoned as they had been before. By the time they decided the kiln dried blanks were not a good option, supplies of naturally dried blanks were ready and all the kiln dried cut foreends were stuck aside. Seemingly to be sold off many years later as untreated SLAZ 43 foreends without recoil blocks.

    I have been trying to confirm this info for years, but certain snippets are in the books, and added to stuff I got from another source, went together into the rough timeline above.

    Interested in any or all comments. Its an open book at the moment.
    Last edited by Son; 03-29-2017 at 10:38 AM.

  14. The Following 4 Members Say Thank You to Son For This Useful Post:


  15. #20
    Legacy Member Homer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Last On
    02-26-2024 @ 03:30 AM
    Posts
    657
    Local Date
    03-29-2024
    Local Time
    03:12 AM
    Gents and particularly Bushy(your thread mate), the dates Ian Skennertonicon and other sources quote for this period of production the recoil plates were not installed, don't correlate precisely to what can be observed on rifles. The first rifle pictured, a 1944 action, serial number E95000 and barrel date 5/44 doesn't have plates. This is close to the latest serial number I've had without plates, but not the latest.

    The second rifle is a 42 action but assembled in 1943, barrel date 5/43 and serial numbered D64000. No plates. The gap between these two rifles is roughly 12 months but more than 120000 rifles.

    Ive had rifles that were manufactured during the period quoted earlier as not having plates, that had the plates. Can't unequivocally prove to the forum that the plates were not later additions on these examples, but it was my opinion and the opinion from others, after very close observation, they were installed from new.

    Now I'm not challenging the published information, just posting what I have seen.
    Is it because of a lag in production from the time the directive to stop installing the plates was handed down and implemented to the time the rifles were mated with those stocks and assembled?

  16. Thank You to Homer For This Useful Post:

    Son

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. No.4 Stock fore ends and lower
    By CINDERS in forum The Lee Enfield Knowledge Library Collectors Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-30-2015, 12:05 PM
  2. De-bubba'ing fore ends
    By jmoore in forum The Restorer's Corner
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-18-2009, 01:54 PM
  3. The L42 and 39 Fore-ends (By Peter Laidler)
    By Badger in forum The Lee Enfield Knowledge Library Collectors Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 12-07-2008, 10:26 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Raven Rocks