Ecuador 88 Commission Rifle Carbine Conversion

[Aragorn243]

Mike knows I like unusual stuff and he alerted me to this one about a month ago and I was finally able to meet up with him yesterday to pick it up. His daughter is actually the one that said this one is right up my alley. Thanks Mike and daughter.

He sent me some pics and I spent about a month researching this monstrosity. Not a whole lot out there on it but three days ago I finally found a confirmation photo on the net.

Details are a bit sketchy but this is what I was able to find out. Ecuador purchased thousands of 88 Commission rifles off of Germany in the early 1900's. Out of these, a fair number were either converted prior to sale or sent back and converted after the initial sale around 1904. These were arsenal converted although not exactly sure which arsenal. There were two German firms which are suspected but Belgium and the Czechs are also rumored. The barrels were replaced, the sleeves were cut at the point where the cut is under the rear band, a new nose cap with no bayonet lug was fitted. The cleaning rod channel was filled and side mount sling swivels were fitted with the original rear sling swivel hole filled. I cannot confirm the cutting of the sleeve as I cannot get anything apart at this point. A cavalry sight is installed so it would seem to me they may simply have fitted cavalry sleeves. The receiver was scrubbed on many of these including this one. Some markings are there, the serial number remains but is faint. Many of the German proofs are present. There is nothing on the stock that I can see from a manufacturer.

Ecuador did not take very good care of these. They stored them in a huge pile in a large room. They were purchased by a single company and imported them in the early 2000's. Nearly all are in rough shape. This one looks horrible. All the screws are rusted tight. Stock seems solid for the most part but is missing some chunks at the butt and the for end. Many of these did not have their bolt heads and the bores were junk. This one is complete although a bit stiff which I suspect is just from the old grease. It also surprisingly has a decent bore. It was not however upgraded to the "S" standard so I'm going to have trouble firing it due to a lack of ammo.

My book on the 88 Commission rifle mentions the Ecuador purchase but not the conversion. I was able to find one website which lists it as a legitimate 4th version of 88 Commission Carbine. Some argument if it is a musketoon, short rifle or carbine but this specific site says it meets all criteria for carbine, mainly due to the side mount sling swivels

I'm not sure what I am going to do with it. I have a very strong desire to neutralize the rust and remove it but I do not want t destroy the rifle in the process. I suspect it is going to have a length of time with penetrating oil on the screws. Until I can get it apart, not a whole lot I can do other than wipe down the stock a bit. There is significant pitting along the wood line, especially along the barrel sleeve. Magazine has a decent amount of surface rust I can probably get off without taking the rifle apart but I'd like to put the whole thing in an electrolysis bath.

It does have a lot of character as is however. Introducing the beast:

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[henry r]

Yep she's a bit rough. I'm sure by the time you are finished it will be beautiful and we will all be wondering how we didn't see it's potential.

[browningautorifle]

Yup, pretty rough. I know you already know how it's going to turn out though, after the last one...

[Eaglelord17]

Neat little carbine. Looks like it is a good time for Commission Rifles at the moment, I have two M13s on the way (don't worry there will be photos and details).

Just a small point for the ammo. The 'S' marking on a Commission 88 doesn't mean it is safe to shoot .323 bullets. Most 'S' marked barrels actually have the original barrel still (which generally measures .3215). My personal loading for Commission rifles of all sorts is a 170grn .321 bullet (i.e. 32 Winchester Special bullet), under 40grns of IMR 3031. Haven't done much testing with the accuracy yet, but it has shown plenty of potential and I intend to have that same load out shooting today (this time for a 88/05).

I highly recommend slugging your bore before shooting any Commission 88 rifle, it can provide very useful knowledge as to what type of bullet to use. Remember some even have a .316 bore (Czech barrel) and I definitely wouldn't want to send a .323 bullet down that!

[bob q]

Lots of incorrect information posted here . First the German military NEVER sold any Gew-88's in the 1900's , that is bad information put out by someone who made a some mistaken conclusions based on bad information . The Gew-88 was Germany's most numerous and main battle rifle until 1911 . Other than some commercial sales from Steyr of 1894 dated rifles , the 88's went to SA from the Czechs in the late 20's and early 30's . There are NO S marked barrels , only the receiver . So if the barrels was changed , the S on the receiver means nothing . The Gew-88 was never meant to fire a .323 dia bullet , ever . The Bullet in the S ammo was .321 dia and designed to be fired in the Gew-88 with it's .321 bore . The S is not a bore size . The Z marking IS a bore size , .323 , but it was still for the .321 dia bullet . The SA rifles will be found with more original .321 German barrels than the extra small .3165 Czech barrels . Yes the .321 dia Win special bullet is a good one to use in .321 88's . I put out that info over 20 years ago , when everybody was just sure the rifles all had .318 bores [ which they NEVER used ] .

[Aragorn243]

This one is worse than the Belgian so a bigger challenge. Not in a hurry to shoot it.

[Aragorn243]

According to Paul S. Scarlata, Ecuador obtained their first 88 Commission rifles in the late 1890's. These were said to be ex-German rifle's, not contracted through Steyr. Numbers were around 11,000. Now when you consider that the 98 was entering service and Germany was not at war, they would have excess 88's for disposal with production ceasing in 1897 and with over 2 million made. So you decide, Paul Scarlata, a recognized author/expert on the 88 Commission rifles or Bob. I'm going with Paul. We've had this discussion before. The first order for South America was from Peru, was through Steyr and predated the Ecuador purchase.

[Aragorn243]

Great news. I got it apart. Photos probably tomorrow on interior and the state of the barrel shroud. There were three casualties, one fatal. The screw in the nose cap would not move, screwdriver, vise grips, etc so drilled it out. In the process the nose cap suffered some minor damage. The stock has some dry rot and the end cap area was very weak, a third of it had already rotted away and when I pulled the barrel out, it snapped off. Barrel shroud was indeed cut under the barrel band. It looks like they installed a smaller tube inside the two sections. Not sure how it is held together, rust may be hiding spot welds. The rust underneath is pretty bad on the shroud but doesn't appear to have gone through or weakened it significantly. I did not try taking the shroud off. Will wait until after electrolysis to attempt that. There is actually a 1 inch square of good bluing under there. The rest is orange. Receiver is pretty good, only one small area of significant pitting that I saw. Didn't mess with it much it was covered with liquid wrench and I was doing my best to not get filthy. Wife says I failed anyway.

Tomorrow I'm going to set up my electrolysis bath and get it cooking.

[bob q]

Hardly an expert , that guy has done more damage to the truth in the last 10 years [ at $200.00 an article ] . He has NO real rifles and does not read German . Production end was 1899 . The German military said it was their main rifle until 1911 , just look at the original records [ PS did not ] . 98 production was slow at first . There are no German records showing any Military Gew-88 sales in 1900's , but there are Czech records showing the sales in 1929 to 1934 . The whole 1900 sales bs started because all the rifles from SA were Gew-88s , no 88/05 , The rifles had unit markings from front line units , and some people did not know there were still more Gew-88's than 88/05's in German service [ on their books ] at the start of WWI . Yes Gew-98's did replace 88's early in the top units , but those rifles were not sold off , they went into reserve and then to Austria in WWI , then to SA after the war .

[Aragorn243]

Sorry Bob, sticking with Paul. He has documentation, you don't.