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    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
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    New Police Powers

    At last the PM is giving new powers to the police to engage specialists from the Army in light of the Lidnt Cafe fiasco the Army Commando's will also train selected Police TRG in Counter Terrorism operations there has been allot said about how the situation was handled but in the retrospect this is a good move.


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    Mmmmmmmm. Giving more powers to the Police is a truly double edged sword - and not necessarily for the better! There are some jobs that are better left to the experts as opposed to the enthusiastic amateurs or wannabees. One day I'll tell you about the cops and the underslung grenade launcher saga.............

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    Thanks Peter I am not going to go into depth but safe to say there was an opportunity for a police sniper to take out Mann Monis but was not given clearance to fire for fear of an explosive device in a backpack, the siege went on for a protracted time nearly 16+ hours I think. The bar manager tried to disarm Monis but failed which cost him his life in the end as he was shot execution style with a 12 gauge to the head. It was only after the fact that the police TRG entered the cafe and shot Monis but also killed a woman by a ricochet.

    The Army had done up a complete mock up of the cafe, the commando's it was felt were better trained to deal with this type of scenario (please lets not get drawn into a bloated thread of what if's guys).
    It was felt after the inquest there were flaws in the way the whole situation was handled by the police commander and the definite lack of communication between the HQ and front line.
    Anyway it was a terrible act and hopefully good will come out of it and the woman's relatives may have some closure.

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    We have different laws here which prevent Federalized military personnel from serving in country (unless it were to be suspended). Regardless hostage situations are extremely dynamic and the bad guy gets a heavy percentage of the vote. Having served on a tactical team for years I can tell you a lot of the issues are at the command level. Teams train a lot or at least ours did. What did not happen enough was the inside cats coming out to train with the outside cats. Guess who runs the show when it hits the fan, the inside cats. I've worked for some very good inside cats but they were the exception. Too many can not make the hard calls and are willing to play it safe until there is no other option left. Most team members will train as much as you allow them. The weak link that needs to be addressed is the command level IMO. Hopefully both ends get addressed. You can have a highly trained motivated set of hard chargers, but turn them over to someone that can make a hard decision and none of the rest matter. Best wishes to the good guys and gals regardless.

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    Between Canadaicon, Australiaicon and Great Britainicon's cucked up firearms laws what do you expect? What do you think would happen if this guy tried to do this in Texas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CINDERS View Post
    Thanks Peter I am not going to go into depth but safe to say there was an opportunity for a police sniper to take out Mann Monis but was not given clearance to fire for fear of an explosive device in a backpack, the siege went on for a protracted time nearly 16+ hours I think. The bar manager tried to disarm Monis but failed which cost him his life in the end as he was shot execution style with a 12 gauge to the head. It was only after the fact that the police TRG entered the cafe and shot Monis but also killed a woman by a ricochet.

    The Army had done up a complete mock up of the cafe, the commando's it was felt were better trained to deal with this type of scenario (please lets not get drawn into a bloated thread of what if's guys).
    It was felt after the inquest there were flaws in the way the whole situation was handled by the police commander and the definite lack of communication between the HQ and front line.
    Anyway it was a terrible act and hopefully good will come out of it and the woman's relatives may have some closure.
    It is very unfortunate that someone higher up the food chain had to give the sniper the OK to shoot. That to me shows poor leadership and recruiting.

    Your sniper has to make the call, not someone who doesn't have the view he has and is analyzing the situation in real time thru his optics. I remember a sniper taking a shot that took our a guy in Canadaicon a few years ago, asked my SIL who was a sniper with the Tac Team in a different city who called the shot? He told me the sniper, he has to be the one and does if from observing what is happening.
    Why use a 50 pound bomb when a 500 pound bomb will do?

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    Really Senior Member Paul S.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P246 View Post
    We have different laws here which prevent Federalized military personnel from serving in country (unless it were to be suspended). Regardless hostage situations are extremely dynamic and the bad guy gets a heavy percentage of the vote. Having served on a tactical team for years I can tell you a lot of the issues are at the command level. Teams train a lot or at least ours did. What did not happen enough was the inside cats coming out to train with the outside cats. Guess who runs the show when it hits the fan, the inside cats. I've worked for some very good inside cats but they were the exception. Too many can not make the hard calls and are willing to play it safe until there is no other option left. Most team members will train as much as you allow them. The weak link that needs to be addressed is the command level IMO. Hopefully both ends get addressed. You can have a highly trained motivated set of hard chargers, but turn them over to someone that can make a hard decision and none of the rest matter. Best wishes to the good guys and gals regardless.
    You refer to the Posse Comitatus Act. You might want to look at recent changes and exceptions.

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    A "Police Marksman" in the UKicon currently makes his own mind up. His justification for taking the shot lies solely with him.
    Delays in waiting for all Green lights, more than one Marksman has a view, are all b******.
    Delays or hesitation cost lives, but every operation has different challenges IMHO
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    Hard to imagine the Army being better trained than the police in taking out a hostage situation. Different countries, different outlooks, different missions. As pointed out earlier, federal troops cannot act on US soil unless there is some sort of national emergency. Anytime you see photos or videos of troops doing something here they are National Guard which are under the control of the State Governor and they are not often armed and even rarely, given ammo if they are carrying. Regular police here obviously have to be trained in dealing with armed citizens as it's about a 50/50 chance the person is going to be armed. Even with that, for hostage or terrorist type actions, they have regionalized SWAT teams that are heavily trained in these matters.

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    That may be so for the USAicon, but in 1980 the Britishicon SAS ended the Iranian hostage siege with no losses to themselves or hostages, I feel it is giving the Police access to training & weapons even they may not be able to procure.
    Look who knows I hope it never happens again here thing is the more power/freedom to act autonomously to take out the baddie then go to it give them the tools/training to eliminate them if an opportunity arises well before it gets to the point where innocent lives are lost.

    Pretty sure the TRG here in our state at times utilize the kill house here in Perth at the SAS barracks.
    It was felt by the populace that what went down that the siege could have been ended earlier, it is hard to understand why it was not, it's not in the scope of this thread to pass any sort of judgement of what happened and the calls that were made at the time by peoples entrusted/trained to do so.
    It wont bring back the bar manager nor the woman taken out by a ricochet but may help the powers to be understand and learn from this so it never happens again and give solace/closure to those affected by the tragedy.

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