T less t's

[Roger Payne]

Ah! I see. I hope it turns up.

[bigduke6]

cheers so far guys, actually this one is stampd m47 no c, it does have a scope number in the wrist and the scope it now has is a mk1, tho it is a forced match to this rifle as the old rifle number is still painted on the scope tin and this rifles number stamped on the lid beside old rifles number, the lable inside the tin is matched to the scope number too. no number on bracket. so scope and matching tin came off another rifle but has been forced matched to this rifle at some time, also its been rebarreld with a 44 dated barrel. possably a new forewood too this rifle has seen some heavy use.

Still need pictures, as it sounds like the tin has been matched to the scope, unless its obvious the butt has been recently stamped.

[bros]

Ah! I see. I hope it turns up.

Roger thankfully rear sight has been located and will be in the mail tomorrow. I hope to have your answer soon as to who manufactured the rear sight.

[Roger Payne]

tonyd, have you established if the butt is original to the rifle, or a replacement fitted at some point in its life? Thinking about it, if the butt is original (your rifle serial number on the stubb that fits into the butt socket & S51 on the underside) & it has not had any serials sanded out, & only bears the serial of your current scope applied after the event as it were, then your rifle probably is one of the 'Less Telescope' rifles. However, if the butt is a replacement we really can't say a lot. Obviously, you'd need to take off the butt to find out, if you haven't already.

Just a thought......

[tonyd]

yes me and the ower took the butt off, it does have the s51 on the underside and rifles serial number stamped in the butt socket but we both agreed the fonts didnt look right, so its either a armourers replacement butt or one someone else has stamped it.

[bros]

Key evidence is a scope serial number on wrist of butt, ... or not.

By the time the BSA Shirley "M47C" mark was in use (1944) the British markings were pretty standardized. A 1944-1945 British made rifle with pads and cheekrest but with no T mark almost certainly indicated that it was a No.4 Mk.I (T. LESS TELESCOPE). This means that for some reason the conversion process on that rifle was halted partway through the process.

If it is a late one e.g. Serial number X3xxxx, it would likely be end of war ... stop conversions. If it is earlier like 1943, then that would likely be a reject.

It is a very tricky area.

Colin.......funny that you should mention that. I was looking at another one I own, a 1945 BSA Shirley M47C sniper serial # X3xxxx with all the correct stampings associated with snipers including scope serial # on wrist of butt........but no T stamp on left side wall of receiver ( yes I have verified that butt is original to rifle as upon removal of the butt the hidden serial number is the same as the rifle serial #).
I wonder if this rifle is considered a scopeless T? That really doesn't make any sense, why would the scope # be on the wrist of the butt then?

[bros]

Bros, out of curiosity, what manufacturer is the rear sight on your T? Some rifles arrived at H&H for conversion with battle or stamped rear sights, but were otherwise suitable, & rather than rejecting them H&H fitted replacement Mk1 sights. To make it clear that these rifles needed re-zeroing with iron sights the 'S' was intentionally not stamped, as the rifle was not yet sighted in with its iron sights. So, it could be an oversight, or it could be intentional. A quantity of Savage made rear sights were supplied to H&H for exactly this purpose, although I have only seen them used on 1943 dated conversions to date.

Cheers.

Roger I have finally received the original rear sight that was with the rifle. It is SM stamped on the aperture slide (left side) ...on the opposite side it has the broad arrow stamp. On the top of the thumb wheel it is N67 stamped, the same stamp is found on the main sight body just to the left of the thumb wheel as well as on the backside of the threaded nut that passes through the aperture slide for the adjusting screw. On the top backside of the main sight body just to the right of the thumb wheel there also is a broad arrow stamp.
Yes we can safely say that indeed it is a Singer manufactured rear sight........I guess there still remains a few possibilities as to why it was never "S" stamped.

[Roger Payne]

Might even just have slipped through the net. I've seen lots of things that shouldn't occur over the years! Certainly N67 would be spot on for a later war rifle, with the earlier markings for Singer being found on 41, 42, & 43 rifles. The early sight leaves are marked SM41/2/3 as appropriate. Suspect they went from SM43 to N67 either late 43 or very early 44, although with various production lines no doubt running together there may well be some changeover blurring.
So, I'm guessing your rifle is most likely a BSA 44 or 45??

[bros]

Might even just have slipped through the net. I've seen lots of things that shouldn't occur over the years! Certainly N67 would be spot on for a later war rifle, with the earlier markings for Singer being found on 41, 42, & 43 rifles. The early sight leaves are marked SM41/2/3 as appropriate. Suspect they went from SM43 to N67 either late 43 or very early 44, although with various production lines no doubt running together there may well be some changeover blurring.
So, I'm guessing your rifle is most likely a BSA 44 or 45??

You are correct Roger, it's a BSA 1944.....a lovely piece.
Your expertise is always much appreciated, thanks again.

[Surpmil]

The only rule I know of is that we don't know why they seem to represent almost every year and maker, in particular early Savages. I had one that was a pristine 1944 N322-- M47C. Any good reason for that not to be converted? None that I could see. My best guess would be they got ahead of themselves at some points, perhaps when the supply of brackets fell off due to ?? and the extra were set aside and never caught up with again. It's been said that things like solid forsight blocks led to rifles being rejected, but why would you convert a rifle then reject it when you could see very easily at the beginning what type of foresight block it had?

Bear in mind that we figured out roughly what H&H produced and it wasn't a lot before 1944. The Canadians didn't get their full stock of No.4(T)s until around early 1944 IIRC. The supply of telescopes far, far outstripped the conversion work based on serial numbers and dates of scopes.