Early No. 4 Mk.I Trials scope brackets

[Roger Payne]

Hmm. You could be right, but I don't think I'd place too much reliance on this particular 4T to argue the point. It certainly has some issues. The rifle, scope & bracket are all genuine, but the rifle has been re-matched. It's pretty improbable that you'd come across a 'factory matching' 4T dated 1945 with a lowish serial number Mk1 scope on it. Odd that the scope serial number has acquired an 'S' suffix when stamped onto the wrist of the rifle. In fairness I can't see any obvious old scope numbers on the butt that have been obliterated, though the rifle lacks a side wall 'T' so it could be a 'less telescope' rifle anyway. The bracket is a Rose brothers bracket, & I suspect some 'striking up' towards its back end, oddly enough just where rifle serial numbers tended to be stamped. I may be woefully out on this, but my hunch is we have a real BSA 1945 'less telescope' rifle that someone has matched up to a Mk1 scope & Rose Brothers bracket, with a little bit of tinkering to make it look more 'convincing'. Odd about the acquired 'S' suffix to the scope serial number........maybe the person responsible got confused with the TP rifles........

Just my tuppence worth.

[smle addict]

Interesting thread...

Looking at the pics of the rifle for sale, I noticed a few things. On the inside of the mount at the rear, there is a small "broad arrow" stamp. In reading Laiders' "Armorers perspective: 303 no 4 (T)," on page 80, he states: "...if your bracket has the little WD arrow stamped on it, then it was probably one of those supplied as a replacement part and fitted during the major Base Workshop of Factor Thorough Repair schedules during which time the rifle number was stamped on the side."

Also, the font looks off to me as well. I have an L42 and an FTR'd no 4, both of which have the WD arrow stamped inside the bracket like the bracket in the auction link. Both have the right side of the rings in the hundreds. These fonts match earlier rifles I have with original brackets. The font on the auction item looks larger and not in keeping with other T mounts.

Long winded way to confirm Roger's (and others) opinion that this is not a trials mount, and has also, perhaps, been subtlety doctored.

[tonyd]

hope this works..

[tonyd]

righto it looks like i have posting pics sussed, what make of bracket is this? its attached to a mk1 scope.

[RobD]

Roger,
I am sure you will reply, so can I jump in: would be possible for you compile your [unique] wisdom about No 32 scope brackets, e.g. in the form of a little article for the HBSA Journal, or a sticky or photo gallery on this forum?
Rob

[Roger Payne]

Hello Rob & tonyd. It's a genuine Rose Brothers mount but the finish is just a little too good (too smooth), so i suspect it's been tickled a bit at some point in the past. The cradle caps may have been renumbered as well, though I wouldn't want to be too pedantic over that without closer photo's. However, it's a real bracket & it's nice enough.

Rob, I'll see what I can do. I never did do anything for you on subtle differences in body pads did I? I'll try & do something that includes a bit on both brackets & pads. Probably doing something for Milsurps would be easier.

ATB

[tonyd]

this mount and scope were found in a wooden toolbox in the garage of a deceased ww2 NZ veteran when the family were cleaning out his stuff a few years back. the scope and a few other goodies he bought back with him had been sitting in that box ever since he returned from service. the family never found a rifle though....

[Roger Payne]

Well, assuming he didn't play about with it himself, you've got a particularly nicely finished off example. Nice find. They usually bear rather more obvious file marks where they were cleaned up of rough edges/surfaces before being given their final rust proofing finish.

[Surpmil]

The very early brackets, wherever they were made, were very well smoothed from what I have owned (2) and seen in various books and posts online. The rough file marks were definitely not a feature of the early production.
The same trend is visible in the No32 scopes: the early production were very well finished cosmetically, later on features such as the casting and smoothing of the turret block became more and more sloppy.

Those who own Trials No4(T)s with brackets that are not definitely original may want to loosen off the rear "thumb screw", tighten the front one well down and in a darkened room shine a light back towards their eye from the forward side of the rear pad. I suspect they will see some light they did not expect to see if they look down along the mating surfaces, even with the early pattern brackets. Look carefully at the angles.

[Roger Payne]

Hi Rob. Forgive me for asking, but what criteria did you use to establish that they were very early brackets?