Another Lee Enfield Sniper

[Giove]

What do you think of this sniper? A fake?

Information

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[mrclark303]

No4mk2 converted to T "ish" spec I would say...

[Roger Payne]

I suspect the receiver side wall engraving is probably honest - about the only marks that are. Assuming so, it was FTR'd by BSA in 1955 (or is it 1953?), & probably converted to Mk1/2 spec at that time, long before someone took some repro parts & added them, together with some implausible numbering on the scope bracket central face & the cradle clamps.

[Giove]

Thanks.
As I suspected.
Yes, it was FTR'd in 1955.
I think the scope and the bracket are the only original components: they are those mounted on the Italian Lee-Enfield sniper rifles. Anyway completely out of place on this rifle.

[Roger Payne]

Hi giove. Is the bracket & the scope of Italian manufacture? The scope didn't look quite right to me, but there are no really clear views of it, nor of its markings. The bracket definitely isn't of UK manufacture, nor Canadian, so I guessed it may be a fake. If that's not the case I'd be interested to know more - did Italy set up any 4T's, or just make replacement scopes & brackets? And do you know if the scopes were made it Italy, or were UK scopes reworked?

Thanks.

[Gil Boyd]

Its NOT right I'm afraid.............

This from our very own site:

Spotting a fake sniper rifle

Besides looking for both ‘T’ and ‘TR’, one very simple test is to examine the screw heads on the pads. Staking the end of the slot with a pin punch is an uncomplicated way to lock a screw head, and was listed in the armourer’s orders in March 1946. More than one stake per screw head, indicates the pad has been removed or replaced, either for repair or overhaul. A single stake mark suggests a rifle is newly converted, was not used very much, or left British service prior to 1946. The front pad takes the worst beating of the two.

To summarize Laidler, the first guideline is to examine the left side of the receiver. Read the model number. All British and Savage-made sniper rifles were built on No.4 Mk1 actions (“number four mark one”). Only wartime dated Long Branch No.4 Mk1* (“number four mark one star”) receivers were converted to sniper rifles. If a rifle from two British plants was more accurate than average, it was set aside for No.4(T) conversion. Birmingham Small Arms’ plant in Shirley stamped their ‘M47C’ on the butt socket. Royal Ordnance Factory in Maltby stamped ‘ROFM’ ‘RM’ or ‘M’ on the sidewall or on the butt socket. The serial number ranges are listed in Stratton.

There was a continual reduction of sniper rifles in British service after 1945 until the 1960’s. Those unsuited for upgrade programs or surplus were sold off. Remaining rifles were converted to L42 rifles in 7.62 NATO. Therefore, a British rifle has a storybook of markings establishing its history. Canadian issued rifles usually do not have the characteristic British speckling of stamps and punches. The collector must educate himself on the nuances of each stamp and punch. They are not random, but tell a lengthy and detailed story beyond the intent of this article.

Still following Laidler, the second guideline is to look for a large ‘TR’ stamped on the left of the butt socket and a letter ‘T’ on the flat of the left receiver sidewall after the model number. The fonts are distinctive. The ‘TR’ was applied by inspectors at the plant to indicate the rifle grouped better than others. It was segregated and shipped to Holland and Holland. The new arrivals were inspected again, and those that met a higher standard were converted. Some rejected ‘TR’ rifles may be in circulation without other sniper marks. The ‘T’ signified a No.32 telescope had been fitted, and the combination met all inspections. Without a ‘T’ marking, the rifle could not have been converted at Holland and Holland or Long Branch, except for defined batches of rifles converted before the marking procedures were settled.

The third guideline is to look for a ¼ inch ‘S51’ stamped on the bottom of the handgrip of the butt stock. This is unique to Holland and Holland. The standard length butt was a Normal marked with a letter ‘N’ on the top near the butt plate. There will be a check rest with a scalloped front end screwed to the comb. There are some variations in the finished shape and centering of the cheek rest. Some rifles have it more upright while others tend to have the rest rolled to either side. Unbuggered screw heads on slotted screws are an encouraging sign. Look for a stamped telescope number on the front edge of the butt, just before butt socket. If possible (but I strongly advise against amateurs touching any tool to a collectable rifle), unscrew the butt and look on the wood for the rifle serial number just in front of the scope number.

Look at the stock, look for a screw from one side of the wood to the other just in front of the receiver ring. This is the dreaded Ishapore screw. The Indians modified every No.4 rifle they found with this strengthening screw. Nobody else worried about such things. Although, India did use unknown numbers of No.4(T) rifles, but the references give no indication of Indian markings.

Look on the front right side of the receiver just behind the receiver ring. A genuine Holland and Holland conversion will have a 1/8 inch letter ‘S’ close to the wood line. I cannot comment if Long Branch is marked as such.

If there is an angular sling swivel on the take down screw in front of the magazine, this is a sign, A) the rifle was either produced after September 1944, B) it left British military sometime near then, or C) someone has ‘improved’ the rifle. A considerable number of civilian Parker Hale target shooting swivels change hands on the internet, regardless of appropriateness for the year of No.4(T) production.

Look at the sights. Are both surfaces on the front sight blade, which face the shooter, undercut? Apparently some snipers found the normal slope reflected back on their eyes. I wouldn’t worry if it is not there. It may be a peculiarity of British unit-level conversions. The back sight should be the machined early Mk.I style, without the 90 degree battle sight. It should be completely black with no exposed metal surfaces. One sign the rifle has been used by someone knowledgeable will be if the underside is rounded out. Smart armourers made this modification (without permission) so their sniper comrades could remove the rifle bolt without removing the scope and flipping up the back sight.

The next to last item(s) are the accessories according to the equipment checklists. Every well-dressed No.4(T) has: a No.15 wooden transport chest; a No.8 scope case and leather strap or No.8 MK.2 rubberized canvas sleeve; a canvas protective case that is too small for a rifle with scope; a Scout Regiment ‘pirate-style’ draw tube telescope; a small tin cleaning kit; and a World War I dated American M1907 leather sling. Each item is a study in itself. Generally speaking, collectors look for matching numbers to their rifle and telescope, and for example, a Broad Arrow on the sling. Any No.8 case or sleeve, and surprisingly the can’s strap, are highly sought after, followed by the No.15 chest. The Canadian C No.7 .22 rifle chest is similar, but not tall enough by 2 inches.

The final item from Laidler’s books is the No.32 telescope and mounting bracket or base. If the rifle offered does not have a No.32 scope, be skeptical. Remember, the Century rifles are sold without brackets or scopes. If there is a scope, compare its number to the stamped number on the butt and the rifle number to the one on the bracket. If they match, Bingo! We have a winner. If not, don’t despair. Most No.4(T)s sold for surplus in Canada have mismatched numbers. The dealers stored the rifles unheated and the scopes heated; most salesmen or shippers didn’t know or care to match them up. It is not unreasonable to suspect a similar tale elsewhere.

In broad terms, a 1941, ‘42 or ‘43 rifle should have a MK1 scope; rifles made in ’43 and ‘44 should have a MK2 scope, and rifles made in ‘45 a MK3 or C No.67 scope (also known as a Mk4). Canadian-made REL scopes restart serial numbers with each mark change. Only a few hundred REL scopes of each mark were ever produced, so overall they are exceedingly scarce. An REL scope on a British rifle or a Long Branch rifle with British scope should be approached skeptically. The best British MK3 scopes were kept for the 7.62 conversion program, as earlier Marks were no longer needed. Some good condition MK3 scopes were sold off.

There are a number of replica scope brackets on the market. US companies like SARCO and The Sportsman’s Guide sell fake sniper rifle mounts. It has an obvious two-faceted rear face. The author succumbed to a testosterone race and bought a not-so-cleared explained replica bracket for 50% more than the retailer was asking. On the other extreme are brackets made in the UK for Roger Payne. His products are high quality and esthetically close to the original, but still distinctive to the knowledgeable collector.

The flat side will be flat, not sharply angled. Look for a round radius on the rear “arm” of the bracket and a short vertical rise from the rear finger knob. The originals were cast iron, with limited machining for the scope contact surfaces, the ring halves, and the bearing surfaces at the pads. Postwar, the British rifles stamped the rifle serial number on the rear leg. Long Branch serialized the bracket to the rifle, centered near the top edge.

Canadian knobs have a small depression in their centre. The British knobs are smooth surfaced inside. There are two styles of split washers which are not interchangeable.

Laidler suggests if the pads have tiny Broad Arrow marks, they are replacement parts from authorized sources. However, there are replica No.4(T) parts kits on the market. One internet seller includes drills, taps and screws with a set of pads. Hardware is one thing, talent is another. The key ingredient in the Holland and Holland conversion was two operators and three machines using all the same jigs. They converted rifles on a production line of one rifle after another. Every faker is trying to replicate that unique set of conditions. Without a good knowledge of the factors, it is unlikely to get the pads properly centered and aligned over the bore. A fake rifle and pads are unlikely to be aligned to the natural centre of the telescope’s adjustment.

[David TS]

Calling it a fake is probably much too flattering to the person that did it!

It is more like a poor attempt at a replica!

[Giove]

Hi all.

Roger, the "Italian scopes", I think, are British scopes reworked. Brackets are some reworked and others of new production.

The serial number font on the bracket of this scope, and the numbers on the rings, are correct.

The "Italian Enfield sniper rifles" are, predominantly, set up in Italy using all the makers; I have 2 Savage and 1 Long Branch with two groove barrel and a 5 groove BSA. I saw, also, Maltby and Fazakerley.

Italy also received a handful of Long Branch T.P.; I have one of these.

I haven't pics of mine, but if there is interest, I can take some pictures.


Gil Boyd, it's not always like that, I learned it right on this forum.


Thank you all.
Giancarlo

[Roger Payne]

Thanks Giancarlo. Most informative. I'd love to see some photo's of Italian set up 4T's. I don't think I've ever seen one, at least, not that I know of.
I agree with your comments, plus of course, on an original wartime 4T you would never expect to see a Savage rifle with a serial number anywhere near as high as 78C being converted to a sniper. All of the Savage 4T's I've seen & owned have been between 0C & about 15 or 16C.

[Gil Boyd]

Giancarlo,

If you were presenting me with that rifle, I would have to decline the purchase thats all............experience and all that tells me it is not 100% correct from what I have seen.
Sorry if I burst bubbles but thats the way it is I'm afraid. If you ask for a considered opinion on a website you have to accept the views expressed, nothing personal.
Good luck if you want it as a 4T, I take it you are saying these are "Italian" 4 T's set up and reworked in Italy!!!!?