Another match has been found: a No. 4 MK. I (T) X31886 and its scope 23898

[Seaforth72]

Another match has been found, a No. 4 MK. I (T) X31886 and its scope 23898, but they are not yet reunited. Presently, Feb. 9, 2018, there are two separate sales open, on two different sales sites in the USA, that contain components that should be reunited.

1. One is a 1945 BSA Shirley made No. 4 Mk. I (T) SN X31866 (basic rifle with cheek rest and scope pads but no scope, bracket, scope case, chest or sling). The wrist shows that it had originally been mated with scope 23898 and the wrist is also stamped with a "26" which was a mystery until the scope set showed up (see below). It is listed for USD $1,695.

2. The other rifle is a 1942 Stevens-Savage No. 4 Mk. I* (T) [?] serial number 13C6918 which is stamped on the wrist for scope number 4319. That scope has not turned up yet in my database. However the scope set that is now on 13C6918 goes with the other rifle. The bracket is numbered X31886, the 1945 No. 32 MK. III scope by AK&S is number 23898, thus both matching the 1945 BSA rifle above. The 1941 dated scope case No. 8 Mk. I (rounded corners) is not marked with the rifle or scope serial numbers, however it is marked twice with the number "26" which is also stamped into the wrist of the BSA rifle above, which solves the mystery of that marking. Not shown in the photos, but the seller has confirmed for me in writing the following: Scope SN – 23898 Wrist of the butt # - 4319 Scope Mount # - X31886 There is a buy in now price of USA $5,000.

If a collector purchased both rifles, they would then have a complete matching 1945 BSA No. 4 Mk. I (T) plus a Stevens-Savage No. 4 Mk. I*, apparently a rare sniper conversion, though missing its No. 32 Mk. I scope set. Luckily the No. 32 Mk. I is the most commonly available Mark of No. 32 scope, but that serial number has not surfaced as yet.

Is the Stevens-Savage a genuine sniper? Maybe. The Stevens-Savage sniper rifles are the easiest to fake and some of the hardest to authenticate since that majority of the conversion work on them was done during the war (i.e. scope pads, cheek rest, modified backsight) and they simply did not have a scope set fitted (a highly skilled task) to compete the conversion. One would expect a faker to add the scope number that they have put with the rifle, but that is not the case here and that is a good sign. This rifle does not have a "T" stamp (a bad sign but then not all of them were so marked) but it does have a scope serial number which is good. It is a Holland and Holland conversion and has the "S51" stamp. No "TR" or "S" markings as these are not normal for a Stevens-Savage.

Rather than provide the links here, which might cause problems of people tripping over each other, interested parties are welcome to contact me and I will happily relay the information to them on a first come first served basis. I have no connection with either seller and my only desire is to see the BSA set reunited. If you are interested in buying these, please do you own homework and study the photos to verify my observations, just in case I have made a mistake. Do check to ensure that the bolt serial numbers are matching those on the bodies.

Information

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[CINDERS]

Seaforth with the stamping on the say WWII production T's the serif would be the one to look for say comparing it to modern day stamps we use today could that be a marker to disseminate a real deal from a faker T or did they post war change also the stampings on the flats was that always done at H&H when they converted them just thought looking for the E6 would be another way of identifying the rifle, but as you say the Savage are the easiest to fake due to the controls in place at the time of production.
Great to see they have surfaced hopefully they may get back together.

[RobD]

Dear Seaforth,

Your mailbox is full and I'm unable to send you a PM - could you add me to your matching service?
I have a BSA 1944 No 4 (T) as follows:
My rifle no. is: P36748
My rifle wrist is stamped to original scope no.: 21730
I have scope no.: 20882
I have bracket no.: P33967

many thanks
Rob [I am in the UK]

[Seaforth72]

RobD: So entered. Sadly there are no matches showing up as yet.

Do make a posting on ~Angel's~ 'Match Making' - also on Milsurps.com https://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=48 The more eyes looking, the better chance of finding a match!

[Gloworm]

Afternoon Chaps, I have Rifle, bolt & bracket no. E38530 and a mk3 scope numbered 21466
The original scope number on the stock is xxx’d out, my old eyes can’t make the digits out ☹️

[Seaforth72]

Afternoon Chaps, I have Rifle, bolt & bracket no. E38530 and a mk3 scope numbered 21466
The original scope number on the stock is xxx’d out, my old eyes can’t make the digits out ☹️

The bracket having the matching serial number to the rifle & bolt is a good sign, suggesting that it is indeed a matching set. The puzzle is if "21466" is not stamped onto the top of the butt, just behind the cocking piece. A cancelled scope number there indicates a scope removed from the set and there is usually a new scope number stamped in. Being a late war example, the markings were standardized by that point.

Does the butt have "S51" stamped on the underside and a cheek rest fitted?

Is the body stamped with the "S" on the right side, "TR" and "T" on the left side and with examiner stamps on each side of the bolt, on the upper surface of the body, near the cocking piece?

Are there any stake marks on the screws of the scope pads to prevent their working themselves loose?

You might try removing the butt and seeing if the rifle serial number, less the letter prefix, is stamped into the flat ledge on top that is only visible when you remove the butt stock from the body socket.

Photos would help as we have very knowledgeable people on Milsurps.com such as Roger Payne in the UK. Markings can be faked and photos, while not perfect, can help to weed out some markings that may not be correct or conversely, reveal that they do look correct.

Verifying and understanding these No. 4 (T) rifles is a combination of many things - all of the markings, quality of work, correct combination of components (allowing for the fact that there were some upgrading and repairs in service life), condition, finish on the metal and the wood, provenance (how long has it been owned and where and when was it acquired, from whom), matching numbered scope case etc. Then of course there is the acid test - Is it accurate at various range settings?