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Thread: Assistance Confirming Suspected 1905M Factory Sporter Requested

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  1. #11
    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    If you mean the number stamped on the underside of the receiver; AFAWK that is not the serial number. The authorities on the subject of Rosses I have read say that the absence of a serial number on the barrel may indicate that the barrel was replaced, but considering the company was only around for about 20 years, how many barrels would they have needed to replace in that time? I'm guessing not too many as they they were chrome vanadium steel IIRC. That said, there were considerable stocks of parts left over when the company closed down and more than one gunsmith in Quebec was assembling rifles from parts into the 1930s and even later from one account. Serial numbers may have been optional, or the practice may have not been universal depending on who the buyer was and if they bought in bulk? We may never know now. I have at least one 1905 R with the SN only on the butt and buttplate, and they match; the usual markings on the barrel like yours, but no SN and no sign there ever was one.
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  3. #12
    Legacy Member Bluenoser's Avatar
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    I was referring to the four digit number poorly stamped across the upper forward slope of the barrel reinforce. The serial numbers on the stock and butt plate match each other, but not that number. There is no serial number, other than that four digit number, on the barrel or the receiver and I do not believe the barrel has been replaced. I have recently come across another 1905 sporter with a somewhat sloppily stamped four digit number in the same location. The location, font and lack of precision in applying the number appears to duplicate this one - right down to the increased space between the third and fourth digits. The other Ross could be a very well done conversion of a Mk II, or it could have left the factory as a sporting rifle. The stock was definitely not a converted military stock but the rifle has a magazine cutoff, which seems out of place on a sporting rifle. There were also a couple of other features that made me think it might be a well done conversion.

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    Contributing Member Ax.303's Avatar
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    If the rifle you saw was the one on the CGN EE, I am pretty darn sure it was a sporterized MK II.

    It is pretty common knowledge that Ross 1905-R, 1905-E, Commercial MK II**, R-10, E-10, M-10 and the MK III HG, all left the factory with serial numbers on the barrel, just in front of the receiver, just above the stock line, on the left side. Some collectors will not even consider one if there is none there. There is a chance that one or two might have been missed. But is highly unlikely they would do runs with no serial number for special buyers, except maybe for the Britishicon trade.

    The barrels with the coarse left hand thread were designed especially to be replaced easily. I believe the barrels were .5 carbon steel.

    Period Ross catalogues advertise barrel replacement services, so some shooters were obviously wearing them out.
    Last edited by Ax.303; 03-26-2018 at 12:17 AM.

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    Legacy Member Bluenoser's Avatar
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    That be the one.
    I was particularly struck by the similarity of the numbers on the barrel to that of my Ross. Both 4XXX range, same location, font and size, same inconsistent spacing and same increased space between third and fourth digits. Too many similarities to be a coincidence. The one on CGN also had a very good bore. The suggestion of a factory re-barrel is sounding more plausible, but I am having difficulty understanding why they would have also applied the assembly number to the new barrel.
    It would be interesting to know how many similarly numbered 1905s at out there and what is known about them.
    Last edited by Bluenoser; 03-26-2018 at 08:17 AM.

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    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    I expect the barrels they replaced were mostly on target rifles which racked up high round counts fast and needed to be in top condition for the big matches. On sporting rifles the major problem was likely to be improper cleaning and storage and corrosive primers. The average hunting rifle doesn't fire many rounds a year.
    “There are invisible rulers who control the destinies of millions. It is not generally realized to what extent the words and actions of our most influential public men are dictated by shrewd persons operating behind the scenes.”

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    Contributing Member Ax.303's Avatar
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    All we know for sure is, it does not have the serial number in the location where it should be, and it has a number across the chamber that does not match the serial number on the stock.

    Seems to me, a fellow that has a Lyman No. 50 installed on his rifle would likely shoot more then your average Joe.

    I would expect he would also be more likely to have the barrel changed out if it starts getting worn out.

  9. #17
    Contributing Member boltaction's Avatar
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    Ross did indeed replace barrels. I have two Mk II** commercial target rifles with replacement barrels. Both have a "2" stamped under the serial number to denote new barrel. Both had their barrels replaced after the changeover in configuration from the older style Mk II** which had the two piece topwood and barrel mounted sight to the one piece with no barrel sight, so the new one piece topwoods do not match as well as one would expect, and underneath one can see the cutouts in the lower stock where the original two piece woods were mounted. Both have earlier serial numbers than one would expect for that design as well. Rosses were good rifles, well respected and liked by their owners, and I suspect more barrels were changed than we would think.

    Ed

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    Legacy Member Bluenoser's Avatar
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    Well, I am a relative neophyte when it comes to researching Ross rifles. It appears there is a lot about the practices of the Company that remains a mystery. The examples boltaction has presented demonstrate that, in at least some cases, the Company had an established practice for carrying the serial number forward in a re-barrel - and it included confirmation of the re-barrel. It would be interesting to know if there is an assembly number on the replacement barrels and, if so, does it match the assembly number on the other components.
    I really do not believe this rifle has been re-barreled. It would not seem logical to me the Company would apply the assembly number to the replacement barrel, but not apply the serial number. That is what would have happened if the barrel on this rifle has been replaced. I think there is something else at play, and I have no idea what it is.
    It appears not at all uncommon to find 1905’s and Mk II’s with a number stamped across the forward slope of the barrel reinforce. I came across a similarly marked cut down and much abused Mk II at a gun show this last weekend. The number on that one was a smaller font four digit (6XXX) very neatly and professionally applied. The 64 dollar question is; what do those numbers represent and why were they applied to some rifles.

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    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    Looking again I see the factory assembly numbers (my term) on the underside of the bolt sleeve have been struck through and restamped. Have never seen that before, but it looks factory. No way to tell for sure now of course, unless microscopic inspection of the stamps shows they are struck with the same number stamps used on other Rosses.

    Talking about the missing serial number on the barrel, we should remember how easy it is to change the barrel on these 1905 actions, other than the MkII** and later examples of course: take out the locking screw underside of the receiver, a couple of smacks with a soft hammer and they often screw out by hand. So easy it would encourage owners to do so if they felt there was any reason to, and the barrels were probably not that expensive from the factory.

    I would suggest that is the reason we see so many sporters missing the barrel serial number. And there was probably no shortage of those barrels on the market for some decades after the factory closed. Whoever ended up with the left over parts may well have been selling them off gradually to buyers all across the country. Dealers who had sold Rosses before the factory closed may well have had stocks of barrels on hand for some time?

    The four digit number you referred to that is across the top of the chamber area is probably a steel or barrel batch number; you see those on most if not all 1905 sporters.

    The foresight hood is presumably a cut down MkIII ("1910") hood, so that might suggest the rifle was built sometime after the MkIII began to be made. Unless it was added by the owner or a gunsmith later, but it doesn't look as though it was IMHO.

    Reminds me of a carbine built for Maj. Blair that is shown in The Ross Rifle Story: someone who knew exactly what he wanted and wasn't concerned with what he may have considered cosmetic or non functional features.
    Last edited by Surpmil; 04-11-2018 at 11:34 AM.
    “There are invisible rulers who control the destinies of millions. It is not generally realized to what extent the words and actions of our most influential public men are dictated by shrewd persons operating behind the scenes.”

    Edward Bernays, 1928

    Much changes, much remains the same.

  12. #20
    Legacy Member Bluenoser's Avatar
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    Thanks for the insight and suggestions.
    Regarding assembly numbers:
    The struck out assembly number on the bolt sleeve is "32" and the number next to it is "33", which matches the assembly number everywhere else on the rifle. They all, "32" included, appear to have been struck with the same set of stamps. I tend to believe someone at the factory just had an "oh sh**" moment.
    Missing serial number on bbl:
    Barrels on 1905s and Mk IIs (2* excepted) are indeed very easy to swap out and, I am sure, many were. We need to keep in mind the barrel on this rifle bears the same assembly number as the rest of the rifle. It has every appearance of having been struck with the same stamp used elsewhere. I firmly believe the barrel is original to the rifle.
    Four digit number on barrel:
    That is an interesting hypothesis regarding barrel or steel batch numbers, and one that would not have occurred to me. It does seem somewhat odd such a number would have been placed in such a prominent location.
    Foresight hood:
    I compared the hood to those on Mk IIs and Mk IIIs in my possession. It is physically impossible to cut down one of the military hoods to those dimensions. This hood is mounted with two screws. The military hoods mount with four screws, and there is not enough meat around the screw holes to end up with what we have here. It is quite similar to the military hoods in diameter, height and depth. I did notice something I had earlier overlooked. The foresight band bears the same "33" assembly number found elsewhere.
    Maj. Blair:
    Thanks for the lead. I will look up the article.
    As always, thanks for the input. A good deal of the enjoyment in collecting these things comes from teasing out their story.
    Last edited by Bluenoser; 04-13-2018 at 11:20 AM.

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