Assistance Confirming Suspected 1905M Factory Sporter Requested

[Ax.303]

Nice rifles Tom.

The top one certainly looks a 1905-M. Is this rifle numbered under the butt-plate? How long is the barrel?

Are there any makings on the right side of the butt on the Mk II 5*?

[Ax.303]

Also on the suspected 1905-M, is the muzzle flat or crowned?

[oldpaul]

The short rifle has, No.1408.S.P., in what appears to be an older stamp font under the butt plate. The muzzle is flat with a slight inside chamfer and the barrel is 26" measured from a closed bolt face to the muzzle with a cleaning rod. On the long rifle the wood is proud of the metal parts and shows no evidence of having been sanded and is sans all markings. The 5* has had the original Sutherland Mk1 ladder sight replaced with a Canada Tool & Specialty (Pilblad) rear sight. In the picture of the rear sight you can see where the original Sutherland's elevation knob wore or fit into the fore end top wood. In defense of naysayers of the short rifle being a Model M; it would be relatively easy to convert a 1905 MkII military into a Model M clone. The most difficult part may be finding the correct MkII rear sight, and TRRS says in their description "These rifles are basically factory sporterized military models". I wish there were some definitive way to determine what version this rifle is but I suspect it will end up being a best guess from those familiar with Ross rifles. I look forward to hearing your opinion. Tom

[Bluenoser]

oldpaul,
I note your short rifle has a hood on the front sight, as does mine. Could you post some pix of the front sight, the band and the hood?

[Ax.303]

In my opinion Tom, for whatever that is worth, you have a genuine first style 1905-M.

I base this on this rifle having a 26" barrel with a flat muzzle and it has what looks to be serial number under the butt-plate.

A military rifle would have a 28" barrel and likely no # or maybe a one or two digit number under the butt-plate.

I have never seen a first style 1905-M before, but I have seen a few second style, and own one myself. I have seen detailed pictures of the third style, but have never handled one.

All the 2nd style 1905-Ms, I`ve seen had 26" barrels (military would have been 30.5 on these) and were numbered the same as what you would find under the butt-plate on a 1905-R, 1905-E or Civilian MK II**.

[oldpaul]

The front sight hood is the same four screw attached type seen on most MkII rifles. Re the serial number placement on Bluenoser's rifle and the two I have shown; on page 41 of TRRS. "MkII** and Cadet rifles for public sale along with sporting and Target Rosses had their serial numbers stamped on the left side or across the top of the barrel reinforce". So, the serial numbers on our rifles seem consistent with the information presented in The Ross Rifle Story. Tom

[Bluenoser]

Thanks for the pic. Different sight and hood than on mine. Thanks also for the TRRS reference. I will look it up.

[Ax.303]

Re the serial number placement on Bluenoser's rifle and the two I have shown; on page 41 of TRRS. "MkII** and Cadet rifles for public sale along with sporting and Target Rosses had their serial numbers stamped on the left side or across the top of the barrel reinforce". So, the serial numbers on our rifles seem consistent with the information presented in The Ross Rifle Story. Tom

The Ross Rifle Story is the best reference we have on Ross rifles. However there are many mistakes and lack of information in this book. Page 41 on it`s own, has three bits of misinformation that I know of. The serial location description being one of them.

As I have already mentioned, and maybe some other Ross owners will chime in here.

It is a well known fact, that Commercial Mk II**, 1905-R, 1905-E, R-10, E-10 M-10 and Home Guard MK III rifles (I might have missed some) all had there serial numbers on the barrel in front of receiver, just above the stock line, and running parallel to the stock in very small (1/8") numbers, when they left the factory.

The other two mistakes I noticed on P.41 by the way are:
(1) at the top of the page in the centre it says that, serial numbers A. 500 to A. 1,000 on Mk I rifles were never assigned. (I know of the whereabouts of Mk I No. A.504).
(2) under Ross Rifle marking it says that C/|\, means Cancellation Authorizing Sale to the Public. Most of us know that this mark is for Canadian Ownership.

[oldpaul]

or across the top of the barrel reinforce

Seems a pretty definitive statement from the authors, as if they had seen rifles stamped this way and/or read literature confirming it. Or, they just pulled that information out of someplace dark to add filler to their tome or to confuse future Ross owners. I am not trying to be flippant with your response and I am well aware of the shortcomings of this book. It seems to have been edited by some one with A.D.D. and the index bears little relationship to where information actually is in the book. As you correctly stated, it is the best reference we have on Ross rifles and two mistakes do not negate the rest of the information on the page. Bluenoser owns one rifle serial numbered in this way and has seen information on two potential others. I own two and have seen one other on a gun auction. That is six for certain. How many confirmations will make an acceptable quorum to satisfy the book's assertion? Best. Tom

[Ax.303]

There probably are legitimate rifles (target maybe?) with serial numbers "across the top of the barrel reinforce". Not to be a stickler, but neither of your rifles are numbered on the top of the reinforce.

Bluenoser`s rifle was most likely numbered on the left side originally. I am pretty sure of this because, I have owned quite a few 1905-Rs and have seen plenty more. I have rifles with both higher and lower serial numbers than his rifle.

They all have the serial number on the left side, except a couple that have no serial on the barrel (replaced).

See post #28, I have a 1905-R that has the proper serial number on the barrel in the normal location, this number matches the numbers on the stock. It also has a different number partially hidden by the stock, that goes across the chamber, much like your 1905-M, only on the other side. Obviously this is not a serial number on this rifle.