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  1. #1
    Member Ced1942's Avatar
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    Carcano 91/24 barrel cut

    Hi everyone,

    So i just bought a 91/24 carcano and i did a little research to identify the rifle and came accross a few post that said some barrel were cut at the front and some at the rear, then sleeved to match the chamber size.

    How can i tell if it was cut down to the front or the rear? I dont have any other carcano to compare and could not find any picture that show the difference.

    Thanks
    Ced


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    Contributing Member Aragorn243's Avatar
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    I never heard that. Cutting the barrel at the breech end wouldn't make a lot of sense as they need that portion to screw into the receiver. They did resleeve barrels but all the cuts were from the breech end in. Again, wouldn't involve shortening from the breech end. Not all 91/24's were sleeved. Most were not and sufferred accuracy issues because of it.

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    Member Ced1942's Avatar
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    Exactly the first had terrible accuracy because they chopped off the final and most pronounced part of the rifling. After they saw that they cutted from the breach side and put on a sleeve to fit in the receivers. That is why some 91/24 shoot fine and some could not hit the side of a barn. Just google 91/24 accuracy as there is many forum that speak of breach end cutting

    My main question is How does a breach end cutted barrel look? I never saw another carcano exept mine so i can't really tell and could not find any pic

    Edit(found this on this forum):
    The first 91/24s were made by Terni in 1925, simply by cutting off the front end of the M91 barrel to shorten it. The new muzzle end had to be turned down to accept the foresight ring, and this was also secured by a grub screw. However, since the M91 Carcano barrel had a progressive twist, this meant that the faster portion of the rifling had been lost. The result was very poor ballistic performance, the twist at the cut-down muzzle being quite simply too slow. Later M91/24s were made by cutting of the back end of the barrel and inserting the barrel into a sleeve section that provided the proper chamber and diameter to fit the action body.
    Last edited by Ced1942; 04-17-2018 at 09:07 PM.

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    Contributing Member Aragorn243's Avatar
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    Again, I doubt they ever cut them from the breech end. Italyicon has a long history of sleeving barrels and cutting the breech out of one would be completely opposite of their standard proceedure which was to sleeve it from the breech end. I'll check my books when I get a chance. Basically impossible to do what was described without seriously increasing the outer diameter of the barrel, plus you're removing the barrel threads at the same time.

    They were sleeving Vetterlis during WWI and I expect they were sleeving the 91's at about the same time. The TS models came after both those.

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    Member Ced1942's Avatar
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    Alright let me know what you find

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    Contributing Member Aragorn243's Avatar
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    Checked my two primary sources.

    91/24's have two basic conversion methods. The first and the rarest was to shorten and re-sleeve the barrels. While no hard numbers are available, it is estimated that less than 200 were converted in this way as it was considered too expensive and labor intensive. These were the first conversions.

    The second is to simply cut the worn end off the barrel. Now this method has two sub-types. The first is to have simply shortened the barrel by cutting off the front portion. The second is to first turn down the breech end one thread and rechamber it and then shorten the barrel by cutting off the front portion. This second method is probably where the confusion of shortening them from the rear comes from. It is only one thread. These rifles will have a star stamped onto the breech end of the barrel.

    In all three instances the barrels are turned down so the front sights can be installed and the original bayonets will still fit. There may be two different points to the turning down also, just in front of the rear sight, and just to the rear of the front sight. Not exactly clear on this but if turned down to the rear sight, they had to install a spacer at the front of the modified stock so it would contact the barrel.

    So the only rifles of this particular type that should not have accuracy issues are the less than 200 which had the sleeves inserted. All others would be rather hit or miss, literally speaking.

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    By turn down you mean? Im still trying to understand the process and im not english native so forgive me if my question is stupid.

    Mine should have a turn down barrel since i have the star but i did not remember seeing any kind of spacer or whatsoever on the stock piece which would mean it would have been turn down at the front sight
    Last edited by Ced1942; 04-17-2018 at 11:01 PM.

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    Contributing Member Aragorn243's Avatar
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    At the breech end, they would pull the barrel off the receiver and the heavy portion would be turned down on a lathe so it could be re-screwed back into the receiver one thread further. They don't remove all the threads, just make is so it can go into the receiver a bit further. They would also remove the one thread and rechamber the bore. They did these with rifles with excessive corrosion in the breech. These have the star so this is what was done to yours.

    If the front sight ring is flush with the barrel behind it but not the small portion of the barrel in front of it, it was only turned down so the front sight could be installed. If the front sight ring is wider both front and back, the barrel was turned down to the front of the rear sight. If that is the case and there is no spacer in the stock at the front end, it may be a new production stock. Most used the recycled stocks from the long rifles but if the stock was bad, they made a new one for it and the new ones were not cut as deep so they fit the turned down barrels.

    Turned down - I'll try to explain this better. At the breech end, the turning down or shortening of the breech end is done perpendicular to the length of the barrel, the edge of the barrel, and the edge of the heavy portion of the barrel that touches the receiver ring are cut to allow it to go into the receiver one thread. At the front portion of the barrel, it means making the barrel thinner parallel to the length of the barrel.
    Last edited by Aragorn243; 04-17-2018 at 11:17 PM.

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    Still not sure i understood but on mine front sight barrel band sits higher than the barrel on both side. That would mean it was turned down a the front of the rear sight. Im surprised the stock is a newly made, it is really badly beat up. Of all my rifle its the worst stock piece, probably it was issued and served somewhere. Thanks for your time, really appericated that you took time to explain
    Ced

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    Hi

    Look where the barrel and recover join than look ahead towards the rear sight about a inch you can see that the new barrel is threaded into the old barrel also if you take the action off the stock you will see a small screw where the new barrel is screwed into the machined off old barrel on the bottom side

    if this has been done than it's been re chambered to 6.5 x 54 M.S.

    It's a safe re configuration I have one with a double set trigger and a lovely custom off set stock.
    I'm looking for a parts Carcano barred action with the double set triggers or the total set trigger assemble with the sear as mine has been damaged by someone fooling with it. I do have all the parts to put it back as a single trigger .
    Hope this help you.
    Best Regards.
    Fred

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