Target Shooting (Advice wanted)

[no4mk1t]

No4MkIT, I know of the trick with blackening front sights but I did not know that they should be the point of focus over the target, but I suppose focusing on the sights more could also take away the stress of "This is the target and I have to hit it" of being fixated on it. Also I used to shoot with the 'surprise' technique' as you have mentioned but I thought it was always just me being unexperienced so I tried other things that never worked, hence I am asking here haha. Yeah standing shooting I am half decent at but I never thought much about such as thing as Natural Point of Aim but it makes a lot of sense (Natural things and concepts like this are exactly what I was after).

Not focusing on the front sight is the root of your difficulties. Black the sights and draw the pencil mark thereon, and give it a go. I think you will see an immediate improvement. The pencil mark helps you to remember to pull your focus back. If you see the pencil mark, you are good to go, if you can't see it, that's a reminder to focus hard on the front sight.
Please report back on your results when you have had a chance to apply this. Try not to giggle, it's unbecoming of a true marksman.

Natural Point of Aim is a lesson in itself. When you have absorbed the front sight technique and are ready, ask, and ye shall receive.

[rcathey]

He taught me to shoot practice groups without checking the target in between - for the good reason that if you do, it is easy to fall into the trap of "chasing the zero" by fiddling endlessly with the sights and unconsciously correcting "last shot was a trifle low, so I'd better hold up a smidgeon for the next shot - oops now it's over the black..."

I love this tip! Didn’t even realize that was a problem of my own until I saw it in writing. Thanks!
I’ll have to give it a go during my next range trip.

[Patrick Chadwick]

rcathey, it really is a serious suggestion. The reasoning is thus:

Let us suppose you have a perfectly set-up rifle, ammo etc. And the sights perfectly centered on the target. Now suppose the random deviation of your shots is +/- 1 MOA (which would be very good for a military rifle), which would mean just about all shots in or touching the 10 on the usual ISSF pistol target (8" black) at 100 metres. This spread includes your PWF deviation (and if that is less than 1 MOA your are a superb shot!).

Now a shot lands down on the 9/10 borderline at 6 o'clock. It's 1 MOA down from the center. No error at all, just the inevitable variation. If you correct, i. e. alter the sights or hold the rifle 1 MOA higher, and the next shot is one that would have been 1 MOA above the otherwise perfectly centered group, but still on the 9/10 border, then, because of the unneccessary correction, it will actually be 2 MOA high. In other words out on the 8/9 border.

So now you are really worried. And have spoilt a potentially excellent target. That alone will upset you for the rest of the competition. The number of 99s I shot with my No.8 would have papered a good-sized living room wall. But smallbore competitions demanded a 100 to be competitive, the placing being decided by the number of 10Xs.

When shooting a competition target, RSM Kilpatrick would only say "OK" after each shot, if it was a 10. He refused to say "on the edge at 9 o'clock" or "a trifle high" anything like that - in order not to provoke that previously mentioned unconscious correction.

Why did he simply say "OK" with no further indication of position?
Because we both knew that the rifle etc was perfectly centered, and if the shot was anything but a 10X that was simply a statistical deviation combined with PWF.

[rcathey]

Patrick,
Oh yes, I definitely understand the utility of the technique after first reading your suggestion. Hope I didn't come off as a smarta$$.
It's one of those things that makes perfect sense as soon as someone says it but I just never thought of it on my own.
I have definitely been correcting myself as you describe above and I will definitely STOP it.
Just focus on aiming for the same spot and let the bullets land where they may.
Genius, really. Thanks again!

[CINDERS]

This is to back up Patrick I shot these groups in Collie yesterday with my APRS .308 Rem 700 blue printed action, 26" Kreiger M/grade barrel 1-10 TR #5 profile, Wild dog stock, Basix trigger, Load = 168gn "A" Max, 42gn AR 2206H, Lapua case, BR-2 primer.
Scope NXS 15-55 x 52 set on ranging power 35 so hash marks are in correct MOA, I shot from a bench 1 group from the BR rest the other with my $50 Chinese Atlas Bi-pod clone using a rear squeeze bag old socks filled with garnet. (Center circle is 25mm)

What I am showing you is there were no alterations to the hold, every hold was at that red dot in the center so variations in this case was, shooter input, different recoiling cycles, none of the cases had annealed necks are work hardened which means the brass is not a malleable as it should be so some cases will be a tad tighter than others (they do not spring back as much after going through the die tighter tension on the bullet). Conditions ~ o/cast, no wind, 22 degrees Cel, fairly heavy air (early morn).
Anyway those groups for that rifle a hunting rifle quite acceptable groups apart from my flyer (called every time by me) that flyer is also evident on the splatter target I shot at 100yds off the bi-pod but the 4 shot hole is pretty good showing that the sight picture and shooting action are consistent & repeatable only environmental's, load variations and shooter variations will cause poor grouping.

Its like playing darts you got to group your darts together every time once you start getting them in a group this means your action is the same as well as your stance once mastered you alter your position on the "Ocky" to plant all 3 darts in the 20 zone.
If like Patrick said if you correct every shot your going to get frustrated as hell as it will never seem tight enough there will always be a hole in the group you need to practice the same sight picture & hold and shoot say 5 rounds and see where they land using no corrections that way if they are tightly grouped you know your sight picture, hold & release is the same you can then shift the poi by sight adjustments or Kentucky windage or altering body position.
But............. the rifle must have a dead windage zero I zero all my scoped rifles windage at 100m period it has to hit that vertical line smack on besides its also good practice for holding a rifle and trigger release, you zero it how it is going to be shot not off a rest if your going to hold the rifle and not held if your shooting it later off a rest.
The reason being the weapon reacts differently when held in either so your zero Wind may not be zero for how it is being shot (recoils differently in your shoulder), using a scoped rifle what I do is have an aiming mark like the 303 one on this site put it at 100yds put on a tad of elevation so it hits above the aiming mark adjust as usual till you hit the vert line on the target then fire a confirmation shot once you have zero'ed the turret knob. if its within half a bullet hole & cuts the line then thats good enough due to shot to shot variation and shooter input.

Blurring out this happens when holding too long it all goes fuzzy it happens using scoped as well due to concentrating for extended periods what is ideal is 3 seconds if shooting prone as you breath in the muzzle drops exhale the muzzle will rise until when all the air is out of you lungs the POA is where it should be and you release the shot, I am usually in the 2nd stage when coming up so when its on just a slight squeeze & the shots away.
If for any reason it goes blurry look away from the back sight keep your head where it is and look at the grass nearby or even at the dirt just near you for a few seconds then resume the aiming sequence what this does is allows your eyes to refocus again and you go from there.
Lastly try this get in position line up the target get the sight pic right the breathing going then in one sequence as the barrel goes down (inhaling) close your eyes and when exhaled open your eyes and see where your aiming if its not originally in the start point move your body around to get it centered then do it all again till you come up dead on, get a book by James Sweet on Competitive Rifle Shooting. (Pics of a couple of books that may help from my collection)

I will try and get rid of my flyers.....

[muffett.2008]

What you have not told us Cinders, is what shot in the sequence this flyer occurs.
If it is the same shot in each string or if it is random.

If random than have someone video you while you shoot, this may pick up an anomalie in your actions or position in relation to the stray shot.
If a constant, than there are a couple of tricks........have someone else shoot a couple of strings to see if the problem is the fault of the firer or the rifle.
Try the video trick to pick up the fault, or try a mind trick taught to me years ago.
This simply involves thinking you are loading five rounds, one at a time.........not concentrating on the actual shot.
When you get to the round that upsets the group, load it but do not fire, eject the round and load and fire the next bullet......continue until you finish your string.
Basically tricking the mind into not thinking about the group blowing out at a known point..........basically a mental block/flinch that becomes a constant through repetition..........all smoke and mirrors.

[CINDERS]

4th in the 1st target 5th was back in the group, then 3rd in the 2nd target with 4 & 5 touching the rings at @8 o'clock in that order the 2nd shot nearly got the pin but not quite....!

[Patrick Chadwick]

Thank you Cinders, for a perfect illustration of what I was trying to explain! Any correction made after one of your flyers would have sent the following shot right out on the other side.

BTW, since all the flyers go left, I suspect the cause is "unrecoverable user error". Maybe holding the aim a trifle too long, so that the sight picture goes soft. You think it's stiil OK, but the result tells you otherwise. For myself, I know that the astigmatism in my right eye causes a slight double image, and if I hold the aim for more than a couple of seconds, the eye can lock on to the false image. This results in an annoying tendency to doubled groups, with two clusters about 1 MOA apart.

"Blurring out this happens when holding too long it all goes fuzzy it happens using scoped as well due to concentrating for extended periods what is ideal is 3 seconds if shooting prone as you breath in the muzzle drops exhale the muzzle will rise until when all the air is out of you lungs the POA is where it should be and you release the shot, I am usually in the 2nd stage when coming up so when its on just a slight squeeze & the shots away.
If for any reason it goes blurry look away from the back sight keep your head where it is and look at the grass nearby or even at the dirt just near you for a few seconds then resume the aiming sequence what this does is allows your eyes to refocus again and you go from there.
Lastly try this get in position line up the target get the sight pic right the breathing going then in one sequence as the barrel goes down (inhaling) close your eyes and when exhaled open your eyes and see where your aiming if its not originally in the start point move your body around to get it centered then do it all again till you come up dead on..."

- Excellent advice !!!

[nijalninja]

Thank you all so much for what you have offered. Almost every new comment on here gives me new ideas and makes things a bit clearer and I appreciate that immensely; no more wandering around in the dark.

Now since I firstly recieved some feedback I felt more confident to do more shooting, so first off I got out two .222's (Both scoped) that I had been planning to line up for a while (but with my flinch I was not exactly excited). I used the "Squeeze and surprise shot" technique for every shot and thought I started off trying to squeeze my eyes shut and anticipate each shot I was able to do shot after shot without even worrying in the end. All of this was off a bench setup at roughly 100 yards with average rifles and average ammo (Both rifles we use for pest extermination and nothing else), but that being said I felt good on almost every shot and managed completely satisfactory groups for each rifle despite their flaws. I am very happy about that.

Plenty of you hear have given advice on open sights shooting as well and I wanted to try some of it, however the rifle I brought out to try was an old MKIII Target Rifle set up from a very long time ago (Some rounds down the barrel loosened up plenty of old fouling and I might take it to the odd shoot just as a gimmick and to exercise the old girl haha), but it has as its front sights a kind of brass cylinder with a glass circle with a small hole in the middle. I do not know the technical name for this. Now this style of front sights made it hard for me to focus on anything without hurting my eyes (My target was too small anyway so it didn't really matter) and couple that with the fact that the Central No4 sights at the back were not lined up meant I was not able to make any groups before running out of time in the arvo. So it was far from ideal and I really didn't achieve anything except closing in on the zero a little and eventually figuring out I needed a bigger target and/or spotter to line it up good enough to shoot groups. In all honesty I should have taken my No4 to try as it has the standard battle and aperture sights at rear and blade at front. I will do that next time, but at least I got to clean my old MKIII out and blow the cobwebs out too (It has had a long history as a target rifle but I believe it may have been over 30 years ago it last shot) which was nice.

So one technique is a plus and the other of focussing on the front sights I just did not really have a chance to try. Thanks a bunch for helping me sort out my flinch, it is already noticeably better, and I'll sort everything out better to try all the other things when I get the chance.

[no4mk1t]

but it has as its front sights a kind of brass cylinder with a glass circle with a small hole in the middle. I do not know the technical name for this. Now this style of front sights made it hard for me to focus on anything without hurting my eyes (My target was too small anyway so it didn't really matter) and couple that with the fact that the Central No4 sights at the back were not lined up meant I was not able to make any groups before running out of time in the arvo.

A front sight that is a cylinder with a clear piece of plastic with a hole in the center of the plastic is an aperture front sight. You center up the aiming black on the target in the hole.
The rear sight probably has an adjustable iris in it to change the size of the rear aperture, like a camera shutter. Under bright light conditions, this allows you to reduce the size of the rear aperture, which sharpens up what you see quite a bit...the aperture effect.

So one technique is a plus and the other of focussing on the front sights I just did not really have a chance to try. Thanks a bunch for helping me sort out my flinch, it is already noticeably better, and I'll sort everything out better to try all the other things when I get the chance.

Here's a drill to help with the flinch. It's called the "Ball and Dummy Drill".
If you have access to dummy cartridges, or snap caps, have a friend load the magazine out of you sight randomly loading a mix of the live ammo and the dummy cartridges.
Then, take up a solid shooting position and proceed to "shoot a group". Your flinch will be very apparent when there is a dummy cartridge in the chamber, but after a few magazines full, you should be able to tame the flinch.

Report back on your continuing progress.