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  1. #1
    Member Jauthatdude's Avatar
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    Need help identifying the model of a modified Carcano rifle

    Alright so my dad has this really old rifle with a clip and a couple loose bullets. The stock has been cut down in the front to just a few inches in front of the clip chamber, about right where the barrel narrows down, and the rear sight got swapped out. The gun is marked "TERNI" "17" "PG2315".
    I just yesterday figured out it was a Carcano after randomly coming across the bullets online. The 6.5x52mm Carcano rounds have a pretty distinct test tube shaped bullet; Though he doesn't have a box for the bullets, so it's possible this could one of the rare few that the Greeks rechambered into the very similar looking 6.5x54mm Mannlicher rounds.

    These are the best photos I have right now, my dad's phone sucks with pictures, but I should hopefully get some better ones within a few hours to a few days. I'll try to go look at it in person during the weekend. I haven't seen it in a few years.

    Now as for the specifics, the barrel is around 27 inches, implying a Model 1941; dad is going to do the "cleaning rod down the barrel and mark it with tape" thing later for a more accurate measurement. It also has a bent bolt handle, implying a Model 1938, but it has the sling swivel mounted on the bottom, while the 1938 has it on the left of the stock, and there's enough stock left that we'd be able to tell if it had grip indents, which it doesn't (unlike the 1938). The front sight was possibly changed as well, as it seems to be right at the tip of the barrel, while every Carcano picture I've seen shows the sight a good inch back from the tip.
    Then there's the markings. I know it's referring to Terni, Italyicon, as the place of manufacture, and the PG part is the serial number, but from what I've seen online, supposedly that 17 means it was made in 1917, which would mean a Model 1891, but the barrel is too short and the bolt handle is bent; and, strangely enough, it apparently does not have a 6.5 marking on it to designate the caliber.
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    Contributing Member Aragorn243's Avatar
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    Probably an 1891 that had the end of the barrel cut off and the stock obviously cut. Bolt may have been bent by whoever did the cutting, may have been swapped out as they are interchangeable. Most 6.5's do not have caliber markings on them. They knew what they were. Only in 1938 when the 7.35 enter production did the 6.5 start being marked and that's usually only on the 38 rifles and carbines.

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    Member Jauthatdude's Avatar
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    Thank you, that makes a lot more sense.
    If it's an 1891, it's possible the barrel may have been cut down to sporterize it for the bayonet holder, and there is the chance the bolt is actually from a Model 91/38. If it was made in 1917, it's possible this gun went through both world wars, though we'll probably never know.
    I'm not sure why the stock was cut so ridiculously short, but my grandfather got this gun from the same guy that in the like 70s traded him a busted Springfield Model 87 (aka a Click-Clack Gun or Gill Gun) for a can of gas, and the thing had a filed down ejector catch (dad thinks the guy was an idiot who didn't realize it's the "trigger catch" you're supposed to file down to make it a fully automatic).

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    Member Jauthatdude's Avatar
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    Alright so the barrel length, from barrel tip to the base of the receiver, was 22 inches, and the barrel tip showed signs of being cut. There are various stamps on it, and the metal looks like it could be a hundred years old.

    This first picture is I believe somewhere on the underside of the barrel, and seems to be 9G C. The second is on the side of the front of the receiver; I have no clue what the top stamp is supposed to be, the bottom stamp is really faded, and it's possible I have them upside down. The last one is a 2 on the underside of the receiver beside where the trigger attaches. Sorry about the quality, my phone camera wouldn't pick them up without flash.


    These are the stamps along the base of the barrel. FP , 17 , TERNI , PG2315 , and then SG and I believe the faded stamp is maybe supposed to be an oak leaf or something like that. for reference, "terni" is on the top of the barrel, FP is on the right side of the gun, opposite side from the SG and leaf, and both sides are partially covered by the stock.


    These stamps are on the underside of the barrel, right in front of the clip slot, 8 , 17 , and I believe maybe "WG"? also a little ways up the barrel, beyond that screw mounting, there is a V stamp in the same orientation.


    There is a star stamp in the slot for the fully-opened bolt, behind the trigger's release-catch for the cocked bolt.



    Here's the bolt, tip of the bolt, and the marking on the underside of the handle's base. I still can't tell if this is a bent handle or a handle from a later gun, The second picture is sideways, as I'm not sure if the stamp is meant to be view with the handle pointing up to be "86" or pointing down to be "PB"


    and the bolt in different positions: cocked with handle up; bolt fully open; handle down, uncocked, safety off; handle down, cocked, with safety on. As you can see in the first and last pictures, the top of the stock seems to have the outline for a plate with two bolts, though it seems it wasn't used for that.


    Here's the inside of the stock, along with what looks like the original sling swivel and what's obviously a new stock pad.



    He had five rounds and a clip. The clip loaded, the rounds easily chambered and ejected, and the clip ejected out the bottom, sometimes simply fallling out after the last round was chambered without need of the button in the front of the trigger guard being pressed.


    4 of the bullets were headstamped with "SMI" on top and "939" below, marking them as from Societa Metallurgica Italiana (a government contractor) with a 3-digit date, thus made in 1939; but the other had "T.M." on top and "B-93" below, which I've found meant they were from a government arsenal: T.M. is the inspector's initials, B indicates which arsenal, and 39 indicates the year.
    So, he's got a military rifle from the later part of WWI and military rounds from the start of WWII.

    (also side note for my previous reply, turns out it was actually a busted Western Field Model 59)
    Last edited by Jauthatdude; 05-07-2018 at 08:37 PM.

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    Member Jauthatdude's Avatar
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    OK did some image searching online and I believe the "oak leaf" stamp below the serial code is actually the Italianicon crown-and-shield stamp, like this one



    Also the stock doesn't have any sort of military stamping on it, So it may be a newer stock that was designed for it. The internals seem to match the Carcano stocks fairly well, but the areas on the sides by the safety seem to have been worked on fairly poorly.

    Last edited by Jauthatdude; 05-07-2018 at 10:01 PM.

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