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Thread: Greatest bolt action battle rifle in history...

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  1. #51
    Contributing Member Ovidio's Avatar
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    You got me worried...
    34a cp., btg. Susa, 3° rgt. Alpini

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    Contributing Member fjruple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3006guns View Post
    New member, as of today.......so be gentle..........

    The #4 rifle is, in my opinion, the pinnacle when it comes to a bolt action battle rifle. It's no target piece, despite being made into such by dedicated shooters in the "Commonwealth", but it was never meant to be. It was designed to be rugged, fast and accurate enough to take out the enemy which it did with abandon. There's an old saying......"The Germans designed their rifle based on a sporting gun. The Americans designed their rifle based on a target gun. The Britishicon designed their rifle to kill people". Very true.

    Having collected military rifles for many years, ALL of them are my favorites. However if I were placed in a situation with harsh conditions, few repair parts and long spells between servicing (a real end of the world scenario) I'd pick.........brace yourself.........a Japanese type 99 with the chrome bore. I don't base this opinion on "favorite" types of rifles, really cool sights, etc. No, the type 99 is simple and rugged. Parts breakage is not unknown, but is very rare. The bolt has fewer pieces than any other military rifle I can think of and disassembles in a heart beat for cleaning. The chrome bore scoffs at dirt or corrosive ammunition. On top of all this, it's light and handy making it easy to pack around. If the caliber (7.7 mm) bothers you, set the barrel back and rechamber it for something like .30-06 or .300 Savage.

    The type 99 has one feature that no other bolt gun possesses. To the uninitiated, that big 'ol "oriental" looking safety knob at the back of the bolt is weird. That knob performs three functions:
    1. It serves as a spindle to keep the parts together.
    2. It serves as a very positive safety.....it's either on or off, no mistaking it for anything else.
    3. It serves as an effective gas shield. If you examine the rear of the knob it's concave, so any gasses from a punctured primer are directed AWAY from the shooter's face. Now look at a Mauser, Springfield or Enfield and you'll see that gas can easily travel along the striker. I bring this up because I've actually had it happen years ago. A defective primer let go and the gas was released through the normal escape hole in the receiver ring, while the rest blasted sideways and away from me. I had glasses on at the time of course, but if not I would have survived unscathed. I changed ammunition and kept shooting.

    The Japanese rifles are not "modified Mausers", they are IMPROVED Mausers. A lot of engineering went into providing the Emporer's troops with a good rifle.

    I have a sporter in my collection, left to me by a departed friend, built on a type 99 action. He discovered that by machining the barrel collar and breech so that the barrel would screw in one more turn, it would now chamber the 7.65 Mauser (Argentineicon) round without any chamber work at all. Since he had three surplus CASES of that ammo on hand, it gave him a rifle that would laugh at the corrosive priming. By simply pulling the bullets and seating a soft point, he had a deer rifle.

    I "prefer" one of my 1903's, a 1917 or P-14, an Enfield #4, a '98 Mauser, even an SKS.........they're all wonderful. But for down and out conditions and possible abuse, an Arisakaicon.
    3006guns--

    I have to agree with you but I would only choose the early version of the Type 99. I personally do not have a problem with the caliber 7.7mm but I do have a problem with the wood and size of the stock. The only other item I would delete from the rifle is the monopod which absolutely useless. The Japanese military put a lot of thought into the design of the Type 99. Like a lot of the military bolt rifles there are weakness in each design. I like the P14 and M1917 but the rifles were designed based on the ideas of the 18th century warfare. I like the Lee-enfields for their magazine capacity and fast action handling. The M1903 has it weaknesses but is strong in its cartridge and accuracy.

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    Really Senior Member HOOKED ON HISTORY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ovidio View Post
    You got me worried...
    No worries. It was interesting to see an argument made for a Carcano.

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    Really Senior Member bob4wd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY View Post
    I am sure good argument can be made for putting lipstick on a pig.
    I’ve dated a few pigs in my time, and let me tell you, a little lipstick helped a bunch!

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    Contributing Member enfield303t's Avatar
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    Interesting discussion. Have a 91/30 which is very accurate however that was obtained by installing a Timney trigger so it took cheating to get that accurate.

    Also have a PU sniper and guess they are OK however the trigger is horrible and hopefully will get a Finish trigger mod. this weekend. That should help a lot as the way it is now I wouldn't bet my life on consistently hitting a anything. The scope is not great and at certain points will move feet with little adjustment so frustrating.

    I have a couple No4's but they are really safe queens, considering shooting one in our local military fun shoot this summer. Shot one of them once and of course I have a real soft spot for any Lee Enfield.

    The K31icon is a fabulous gun, kick my arse for not buying one when they were very cheap as now they are nuts for price. A 31 sniper would be a fabulous gun IMO as low recoil and great bullet design should be hard to beat. If I ever found one at a reasonable price for sure would buy it.

    Why use a 50 pound bomb when a 500 pound bomb will do?

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    Contributing Member Eaglelord17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enfield303t View Post
    Interesting discussion. Have a 91/30 which is very accurate however that was obtained by installing a Timney trigger so it took cheating to get that accurate.

    Also have a PU sniper and guess they are OK however the trigger is horrible and hopefully will get a Finish trigger mod. this weekend. That should help a lot as the way it is now I wouldn't bet my life on consistently hitting a anything. The scope is not great and at certain points will move feet with little adjustment so frustrating.

    I have a couple No4's but they are really safe queens, considering shooting one in our local military fun shoot this summer. Shot one of them once and of course I have a real soft spot for any Lee Enfield.

    The K31icon is a fabulous gun, kick my arse for not buying one when they were very cheap as now they are nuts for price. A 31 sniper would be a fabulous gun IMO as low recoil and great bullet design should be hard to beat. If I ever found one at a reasonable price for sure would buy it.
    Technically adding a trigger isn't increasing the accuracy of the firearm, it is improving the ability of the shooter to use the firearm accurately. Personally I argue the Mosin Nagant is one of the most accurate milsurp rifles out there, provided it is in good condition and fed proper ammo. It gets a bad rep in the accuracy department because of poor condition rifles, poor quality ammo (99% of the surplus is absolute garbage), and inexperienced shooters (Mosin Nagants tend to be cheaper than most milsurps and as such newer shooters tend to buy them, I know my first bolt action was a 91/30).

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    Contributing Member enfield303t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglelord17 View Post
    Technically adding a trigger isn't increasing the accuracy of the firearm, it is improving the ability of the shooter to use the firearm accurately. Personally I argue the Mosin Nagant is one of the most accurate milsurp rifles out there, provided it is in good condition and fed proper ammo. It gets a bad rep in the accuracy department because of poor condition rifles, poor quality ammo (99% of the surplus is absolute garbage), and inexperienced shooters (Mosin Nagants tend to be cheaper than most milsurps and as such newer shooters tend to buy them, I know my first bolt action was a 91/30).
    Probably splitting hairs on the accuracy word however if I did anything to a firearm that ended up with it being more accurate then IMHO accuracy was improved. I only shoot commie surplus ammo and the 91/30 with the Timney is pretty amazing at hitting a standard clay at 200 yards. Considering the bore is a little rough I was very surprised on how well it would shoot.
    Why use a 50 pound bomb when a 500 pound bomb will do?

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    Contributing Member boltaction's Avatar
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    I would vote for the LE #4 as well, but (although I am not Frenchicon) would have to put a bit of a plug in for the MAS 36 as well. It is hampered by a smaller capacity magazine than the LE, but it is light, handles well, the bolt is smooth and well placed, and the aperture sights work well. I think with less French bureaucratic incompetence keeping its production low it could have made a difference in larger numbers in 1940.

    Ed

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    Really Senior Member amadeus76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglelord17 View Post
    Technically adding a trigger isn't increasing the accuracy of the firearm, it is improving the ability of the shooter to use the firearm accurately. Personally I argue the Mosin Nagant is one of the most accurate milsurp rifles out there, provided it is in good condition and fed proper ammo. It gets a bad rep in the accuracy department because of poor condition rifles, poor quality ammo (99% of the surplus is absolute garbage), and inexperienced shooters (Mosin Nagants tend to be cheaper than most milsurps and as such newer shooters tend to buy them, I know my first bolt action was a 91/30).
    I would disagree but caveat that and say the a Mosin can be very accurate... My 91/30 was one of the last rifles I purchased and it came with a surprisingly good trigger. However, it still shot horribly. I got probably somewhere between 5-7 MOA out of it. I spent some time and shimmed the barrel and lugs and it now shoots around 2 MOA, sometimes better. I don't think it's the poor condition of the rifles so much as poor QC and bedding due to wartime conditions are Russianicon doctrine that emphasized mass numbers over quality training and equipment. But the Finns really showed what you could do with these rifles.
    Last edited by amadeus76; 06-18-2018 at 12:00 PM.

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    Really Senior Member Ridolpho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amadeus76 View Post
    I would disagree but caveat that and say the a Mosin can be very accurate... My 91/30 was one of the last rifles I purchased and it came with a surprisingly good trigger. However, it still shot horribly. I got probably somewhere between 5-7 MOA out of it. I spent some time and shimmed the barrel and lugs and it now shoots around 2 MOA, sometimes better. I don't think it's the poor condition of the rifles so much as poor QC and bedding due to wartime conditions are Russianicon doctrine that emphasized mass numbers over quality training and equipment. But the Finns really showed what you could do with these rifles.
    I sometimes think I must be the only guy with inaccurate Finn Mosins! Frankly I'm not impressed with the tacked in shims which are only evidence of quick and dirty expedient solutions and not "craftsmanship". The Soviets had their own approach to bedding for accuracy which makes good sense- the barrel reinforce is intended to be bearing on the wood, for example. I'm fortunate to own a few fully original very early war 91/30's and they are of very good fit and finish. By 'mid '43 things had changed but that is no different than what was happening in Britainicon, Germanyicon, etc. The post war Soviet refurbs, as Eaglelord suggests, are all over the page in quality (as are the SVT refurbs) and it's not a good idea to judge the originals by them. I'll officially place my vote for the Mosin as the "greatest".

    Comrade Ridolpho

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