+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 30

Thread: 1.5 Mil Carbines Left In Vietnam

Click here to increase the font size Click here to reduce the font size
  1. #11
    Legacy Member lemaymiami's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Last On
    04-12-2021 @ 06:41 AM
    Location
    south Florida, USA
    Posts
    70
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    05:53 PM
    -and from what I remember back in 1971... any remaining carbines from Vietnam would give a whole new meaning to the word "funky".... If there were any real value there you can bet that government would be moving mountains to get them on the market and gone... Wonder why I've never seen any speculation on M-16's left behind...

  2. Thank You to lemaymiami For This Useful Post:


  3. # ADS
    Friends and Sponsors
    Join Date
    October 2006
    Location
    Milsurps.Com
    Posts
    All Threads
    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  4. #12
    Legacy Member Frederick303's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Last On
    07-28-2020 @ 09:41 PM
    Location
    Pipersville PA US
    Posts
    739
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    05:53 PM
    Pulled out my copy of the US aid to southeast Asia and here are the official supplies sent over:

    Vietnam: 1950 to 1974 m1/M2 Carbines: 794,094
    Laos: 1950 to 1975 M1icon/M2 Carbines: 74,587
    Cambodia: 1950 to 1975 M1/M2 Carbines: 116,668

    Total Southeast Asia: 985,349

    But, a lot of the rifles were written off (destroyed lost in battle captured) between 1950 and 1975. The number of actual operational rifles officially on the books left behind in Cambodia and Vietnam in 1975, including M1903, M1Garand, MAS, AK, M1D and M1/M2 carbines was 961,580.

    But the quantity of rifles sent to Vietnam and Cambodia prior to the collapse was:

    M1903: ~40,000

    M1: 269,248,

    MAS/AK: 6,405

    M1/M2 carbines: 910,762

    or 1,226,415 rifles, of which 961,580 were still on the books as of April 1975. An overall survival rate of 78% in a 25 year period. Not bad considering the climate and the 20 year war.

    So a realistic figure is likely no more than 78% of the 985,349 rifles still exist, or 772,570 carbines left if one includes Laos, 710,394 if you exclude Laos. It is my understating Los is a client sate of Vietnam, so I have no idea if this is valid or not of the availability for sale.

    Now when Cambodia underwent UN oversight post 1981, after Vietnam pulled out, the UN destroyed all the arms they could get their hands on. So while a small number might have survived, it is almost sure that the vast majority of the Cambodia M1/M2 carbines were destroyed in the 1985~1990 period.

    Realistically then if we consider Vietnam alone: it is likely that approximately 78% of the 794,094 carbines survived or around 619,393 and would be available for import if the law was changed.

    A large number of them were M1 converted to M2, the local Phillly supply base did that wholesale before 1970 it is very likely a lot of these arms would be ineligible to be reimported. Not sure on that as it would depend if the action body was remarked or not. The Philly depot did remark (or so I was told by a chap whose Aunt worked there) the carbines with a 2 overstamped 1, and that most of the post 1966 guns were M2 which would imply around 300~400,000 were M2 carbines. This is a big question mark, as a M2 marked action body cannot be imported.

    The biggest issue would be the official ownership. The records indicate they were still US arms, on loan to S. Vietnam. A nation that no longer exists. Would the US allow there import? It is a rather unique situation as in all other cases the US government has been given first rights of taking arms supplied in this manner, and if they do not take the arms can dictate destruction rather than commercial release or transfer to a third party. Which would mean Vietnam would get no money for the disposition unless the US gives them a blanket release to sell on the commercial market.

    Vietnam has previously sold riot shotguns (South Vietnam got 60,990 of them, mostly 77E models between 1950 and 1975) to Australia between 1990 and 1996. Those guns were in pretty sad shape, 25 years of storage. The firm that imported them to Vietnam said that the shape was such that though they imported several thousand, 70% of the arms they inspected in Vietnam were beyond saving back between 1990~1996 or 21 to 27 years ago, twice as much time has elapsed since then.

    Before that Vietnam sold M1903 and M1903A3 rifles in small to to the Australianicon market. That was earlier in the 1980s and the condition I do not recall.

    So here is a realistic assessment of the possibility of the Vietnam guns coming into the US:

    1) The US government has to allow their property to be sold here, for commercial gain by a communist country. I leave the chance of that happening to the reader.

    2) Any M2 marked guns have to be excluded that might be up to around 40 % of the total supplied.

    3) Of the expected 620,000 arms that were on the books in 1975, likely 70% of them were rust buckets after 21 years, the 22 year hence have likely not improved things any. Notice the 86,000 M1Garands being imported form Philippines stored since around the 1980s had to be treated for termites.

    so 620,000 guns X .6 (M1 only) X .3 (30% usable in 19996) yields a likely supply of 111,000 carbines that would be suitable for importation from Vietnam, if step 1 could be overcome.

  5. The Following 5 Members Say Thank You to Frederick303 For This Useful Post:


  6. Avoid Ads - Become a Contributing Member - Click HERE
  7. #13
    Advisory Panel
    painter777's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    @
    Location
    Central Michigan
    Posts
    5,312
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    05:53 PM
    Thread Starter
    Fred303,
    That gives us a lot to chew on. Thx.

    I found that Jim.M has a US Foreign Military Assistance chart for the M1icon/M2 with very similar numbers... At first glance.

    Foreign Military Assistance

    Also came across this picture:
    Women dressed as Vietcong soldiers parade during celebrations of the 60th anniversary of Vietnam's victory over Franceicon at the battle of Dien Bien Phu.
    DBP battle was in 1954 (?) If so, 60 years later in 2014 these carbines look pretty nice, but sure they are the exception.

    Charlie-Painter777

    A Country Has No Greater Responsibility Than To Care For Those Who Served...

  8. The Following 2 Members Say Thank You to painter777 For This Useful Post:


  9. #14
    Legacy Member Frederick303's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Last On
    07-28-2020 @ 09:41 PM
    Location
    Pipersville PA US
    Posts
    739
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    05:53 PM
    The 86,000 M1icon rifles form the Philippines rang from awful to really nice, same is likely true with the Vietnamese m1 carbines.

    On does not really know, does one? My post was to point out 1.5 million figure is not really correct, given the last 42 years since the war it is likely on a small fraction could be imported. I note the link you showed indicated some might not be US property, which would simplify the import process a great deal and if not on the US inventory for 1975, might indicate the survival rate as much higher than 78%.

  10. Thank You to Frederick303 For This Useful Post:


  11. #15
    Legacy Member Paul S.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    04-08-2020 @ 06:58 PM
    Location
    Back and forth between Sydney and Southern California
    Posts
    1,594
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    04:53 PM
    With regard to the Dien Bien Phu 60th anniversary photo --- my guess is those carbines have been tarted up solely for parade use. The stocks and metal finish look too new, nice, shiny, and unblemished to have seen any recent service use.


    I'd also guess that the North Vietnamese Government wasted no time gathering, cleaning and stockpiling every bit of weapons and kit they could after the fall of Saigon. With that, it's a reasonably safe bet that there is a lot of American weaponry 'being lovingly cared for' in Vietnam even these 63 years on.

  12. Thank You to Paul S. For This Useful Post:


  13. #16
    Advisory Panel
    painter777's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    @
    Location
    Central Michigan
    Posts
    5,312
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    05:53 PM
    Thread Starter
    I wasn't really considering re-import.
    My thoughts were more about the 1,5 mil reported left there in the article.
    I must admit I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling knowing 'they' have ANY of these carbines.

    ---------- Post added at 04:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Frederick303 View Post
    The 86,000 M1icon rifles form the Philippines
    Some still being used:

    Charlie-Painter777

    A Country Has No Greater Responsibility Than To Care For Those Who Served...

  14. #17
    Legacy Member Frederick303's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Last On
    07-28-2020 @ 09:41 PM
    Location
    Pipersville PA US
    Posts
    739
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    05:53 PM
    Paul S.

    The horrid condition of the US supplied shotguns, from 1963 on says otherwise. The Australianicon importers had this to say, taken from Bruce Canfields 2007 Volume, Combat Shotguns page 157.

    Quote:

    Shotguns became our main import until the draconian change in gun laws in Australia (..in 1996) But not before we imported thousands of various types. As I had a personal interest in small arms, every inspection and selection session was also a research trip. My armourer and I carefully noted all data we could, even when we were rejecting 70% of potential product. Sad to say, twenty-five years of marginal storage had taken its toll and very rigorous selection was necessary to gain saleable product. Thanks to my log association with Vietnam, our enthusiasm for research was tolerated and was our extreme rejection rates.

    Unquote.

  15. #18
    Legacy Member DaveHH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    03-18-2024 @ 01:37 PM
    Location
    Northern Calif
    Posts
    1,348
    Real Name
    David Haynes
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    04:53 PM
    There were thousands of captured carbines and many 105 howitzers from the Korean war that were sent from China to N.Vietnam. If I recall, reading Bernard Fall's "Hell in a very Small Place" . The artillery that broke the back of the Frenchicon at Dien Bien Phu was a gift from chairman Mao. When the 8th Army ran like wet paint from 250,000 PLA, they left a lot of gear behind.

  16. #19
    Legacy Member Sunray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    03-29-2021 @ 03:01 PM
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    1,053
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    05:53 PM
    The U.S. left tons and tons of assorted stuff they didn't destroy. Most of it will be in horrible condition after 43 years of sitting in warehouses. Even if in cosmolineicon.
    "...introduced into Vietnam by Frenchicon..." The U.S. government dropped 'em during W.W. II. OSS wasn't big in the Pacific(mostly because Dugout Doug didn't want 'em) but they were there.
    The U.S. provided France with 269,644 M1icon and M2's from W.W. II to 1963. 793,994 M1 and M2 carbines from 1963 to 1973 to the ARVN. Thousands of Carbines left behind in 1954 by the French too.
    "...incinerate at high temperatures..." Costs less to heave it over the side. Same as was done with hundreds of aircraft off U.S. carriers after W.W. II.
    Spelling and Grammar count!

  17. #20
    Legacy Member Bruce McAskill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    01-17-2023 @ 09:10 PM
    Posts
    1,880
    Local Date
    03-28-2024
    Local Time
    04:53 PM
    During the late 60's and early 70's many US bases had orders to take all of the M1icon rifles and or carbines and destroy them. I was told on two different bases that truck after truck loaded with carbines were piled up about 6 to 8 feet high and 20 to 30 feet across. Covered with fuel oil and then gasoline on top of that and then set on fire. Burned for two days and then a tank was run over the remains till nothing but a mangled pile of steel was left. I was told this was a general order that went out to all bases in the country.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Interesting Vietnam movie: Lots of M1/M2 Carbines
    By imarangemaster in forum M1/M2 Carbine
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 12-24-2014, 06:54 PM
  2. Vietnam photos garands,carbines,thompsons,m14s
    By HOOKED ON HISTORY in forum M1 Garand/M14/M1A Rifles
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 07-12-2014, 10:32 AM
  3. Carbines in Vietnam
    By Harlan (Deceased) in forum M1/M2 Carbine
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 12-18-2011, 01:31 PM
  4. More carbines in Vietnam
    By imarangemaster in forum M1/M2 Carbine
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-18-2011, 06:30 AM
  5. carbines in Vietnam
    By kr6ng in forum M1/M2 Carbine
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-28-2011, 12:51 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Raven Rocks